Jump to content

Photo

Nitrogen for Tires.

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#21
TreadZone

TreadZone

    Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPip
  • 40 posts
As said before the key to nitrogen is that it's dry. If you use the compressed air to mount the tire you have introduced moisture into the tire that you then hope to remove by purging. When we supplied and serviced tires for World Challenge most of the front teams used Nitrogen. Most of the teams on the other end used regular air.
Nitrogen will also hold pressure better. I blew up a balloon with air and it was deflated in 3 days, I inflated a balloon with Nitrogen and it was still inflated 3 weeks later. It's just one of the little things and they add up.
Joe
My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it!
Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys!

#22
dstevens

dstevens

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,327 posts
  • Location:Vegas
  • Region:LVR
  • Car Year:1990
Using a purge for a nitrogen fill is so you can circulate the nitrogen through the tire, not to displace the compressed air that was used to mount the tire. The reason nitrogen holds pressure better is that a more consistent moisture content behaves more predictably. As the moisture heats and the air properties change it effects the pressure inside the what is basically a closed vessel, the tire. As stated many time already in the thread, moisture content and consistency is the key. And most of us will never know the difference as we won't have the cars or the chops to be able to tell.
  • Glenn likes this

#23
Sphinx

Sphinx

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:ATL & SFO
  • Region:SF
  • Car Year:1990

For those using the TR Motorsports in the 25mm, does that have two valve stem holes, or just one?  I saw a fellow competitor's set and his had two.   Just had a set delivered, and they had one.



#24
Bad Rusty

Bad Rusty

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 188 posts
  • Location:Paradise Valley
  • Region:Arizona
  • Car Year:1999

So if I generally start my tires at 24-26 to get them to 35-35lbs after puling in from the track, where would you guess I should start with Nitrogen?


Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#25
William Bonsell

William Bonsell

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 398 posts
  • Location:Poulsbo, WA
  • Region:Northwest
  • Car Year:1999
We have multiple sets of TR Motorsports 30 offset wheels and they all have dual valve stems. Didn't think there was a difference with the 25's....
Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#26
Todd Green

Todd Green

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 552 posts
  • Location:SLC
  • Region:Utah
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:60
4 sets of C1Ms 30mm all have dual valve stems. Looks like the last ones I ordered were on 7/29/13.

NASA Utah SM Series Director

We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Donor - Made PayPal donation Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#27
philstireservice

philstireservice

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts

We have multiple sets of TR Motorsports 30 offset wheels and they all have dual valve stems. Didn't think there was a difference with the 25's....

The +25's are BMW wheels so they don't have the dual valves. 


http://philstireservice.com
D-Force TR Motorsport Enkei Momo

Team Dynamics Jongbloed Spec Miata Wheels
Hoosier Toyo BFG Michelin


#28
luckymiata76

luckymiata76

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 103 posts
  • Location:St. Joe, MI
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:76

Nitrogen will also hold pressure better. I blew up a balloon with air and it was deflated in 3 days, I inflated a balloon with Nitrogen and it was still inflated 3 weeks later. It's just one of the little things and they add up.
Joe

Joe-Your experiment had a flaw somewhere. Gases effuse at a rate inversely proportional to their molecular mass. In other words, light gases leak through pores faster than heavier gases. Here's what each gas weighs:

-water vapor =18 g/mol

-nitrogen=28 g/mol

-oxygen=32 g/mol

 

As you can see, only water vapor would leak through the pores of your balloon quicker and I seriously doubt there was enough moisture in your balloon to make a significant difference. Air, which is 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen has almost the same average mass of pure nitrogen.

 

Jeff



#29
Sphinx

Sphinx

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:ATL & SFO
  • Region:SF
  • Car Year:1990

The +25's are BMW wheels so they don't have the dual valves. 

 

 

That explains it.  Though given our general desire for a wider track, I'm sure there's a good reason why folks are continuing to order 30's.  Can someone enlighten me?



#30
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,568 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

I'm sure there's a good reason why folks are continuing to order 30's.  Can someone enlighten me?

Use spacers for a tuning aid.


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#31
Walter Vetter

Walter Vetter

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,199 posts

I put 32 pounds of air in my tires. Why don't they feel any heavier?


  • George Willet likes this
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#32
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,568 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

I put 32 pounds of air in my tires. Why don't they feel any heavier?

Do you really want to go there^ ?  :bigsquaregrin:  


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#33
Bad Rusty

Bad Rusty

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 188 posts
  • Location:Paradise Valley
  • Region:Arizona
  • Car Year:1999

I put 32 pounds of air in my tires. Why don't they feel any heavier?

Love it, but can someone actually tell me if there is a pressure increase difference between standard air from my compressor vs. filling with Nitrogen so I know where to start tires cold?


Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#34
Brian Linn

Brian Linn

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Location:Hermosa Beach, CA
  • Region:CSCC

What do the tire guys use to mount tires these days?  I remember they used to slop a bunch of soapy water on the bead.  So if that water is sealed in the tire, it seems like potential for varying moisture levels, even with nitrogen.  


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#35
GT40Jim

GT40Jim

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh
  • Car Year:1900
  • Car Number:00
I had the honor and pleasure of working the Rolex with Starworks on their DP program. (I got to belt Rubens Barrichello in for qualifying!) Anyway... Our tire guy was Richie Vockings who worked at Mclaren F1 as a tire guy from 2003 thru 2009. I asked him what did Mclaren do for tires. He said that they had a fairly large machine that they would hook up to the tires with multiple hoses and purge them overnight with heated zero moisture content plain old air. He said they tried a few different gases and always went back to plain air. I also crewchiefed Kevin Lepages Nationwide car at Texas this past year and know that Goodyear uses a large air dryer for inflating tires. We only use nitrogen for topping up because its a convenient source of dry air. So that's two of the largest big budget series in the world that do not use nitrogen. The stiffness of a Miata sidewall relative to its wheelrate and vehicle mass means that it is far less sensitive to pressure changes than a cup car.
  • SaulSpeedwell likes this
I like to cut my butter with a chainsaw, why do you ask?

#36
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,344 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

What do the tire guys use to mount tires these days? I remember they used to slop a bunch of soapy water on the bead. So if that water is sealed in the tire, it seems like potential for varying moisture levels, even with nitrogen.


My guy has used liberal amounts of WD40 for decades, including all his own race tires for FA and other classes. I've wondered about it both in terms of what it might do to the rubber and whether it increases the risk of a tire rotating on the rim, but he swears by it and I've had no complaints.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#37
FTodaro

FTodaro

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,713 posts
  • Location:Columbus Ohio
  • Region:Great Lakes
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:35

Mark Bennett turned me on to P-80 it goes on wet but leaves no residue. perfect for tires and bushing.

 

http://www.ipcol.com/shopexd.asp?id=16


Frank
TnT Racing
SCCA Ohio Valley Region
Chairman, SCCA Great Lakes Divisional Series Committee.

Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Donor - Made PayPal donation

#38
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,245 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

Joe-Your experiment had a flaw somewhere. Gases effuse at a rate inversely proportional to their molecular mass. In other words, light gases leak through pores faster than heavier gases. Here's what each gas weighs:

-water vapor =18 g/mol

-nitrogen=28 g/mol

-oxygen=32 g/mol

 

As you can see, only water vapor would leak through the pores of your balloon quicker and I seriously doubt there was enough moisture in your balloon to make a significant difference. Air, which is 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen has almost the same average mass of pure nitrogen.

 

Jeff

Do you work for the New England Patriots on weekends filling footballs with very moist air before games in a warm room?


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#39
ChrisA

ChrisA

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Location:Richmond, VA
  • Region:NCR
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:58

I put 32 pounds of air in my tires. Why don't they feel any heavier?

That's a lot of unsprung weight to be carrying per corner. But if that's the way you like it....


Chris

 

Champions aren’t made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them – a desire, a dream, a vision.

- Muhammad Ali

 

#40
Todd Lamb

Todd Lamb

    Driver Coach // Racer

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 917 posts
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

"...eases installation of tight-fitting rubber parts by reducing the force needed for insertion."

 

Sounds like it might be useful for runoffs tech too.

 

 

Mark Bennett turned me on to P-80 it goes on wet but leaves no residue. perfect for tires and bushing.

 

http://www.ipcol.com/shopexd.asp?id=16


  • George Willet likes this

Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
www.atlspeedwerks.com
SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users