58 replies to this topic

[dmathias]

OK, I'll add my half-assed, mid-pack, regional-running opinion. Be the first to tell me I'm wrong. I ran both (new) Hoosiers and (new) Toyos last year. At first the Hoosiers felt awesome, after about 8 heat cycles not so much. Still got beat by the fast guys that were running Toyos. When a cycled-out Hoosier gives up grip they don't give much (any) warning. For me Toyos have a much more usable life-span, and when the do get cycled-out they still give you a warning squeal before they spit you off course. Since my budget permits several new sets of tires OR entry fees, but not both, I'll be buying a couple sets of Toyos and calling it done.

-Denny

[davecarama]

I have most of my track experience on Hoosiers, and in a Miata. I think the performance might drop a little as they cycle, but even when you run them to their cords, they are still grippy (as grippy as the Toyo tire). Based on my experience with NASA TT, Hoosier likes to reward drivers that win on their tires. With a minimum of 7 in a class, they give 1 tire to 2nd and 3rd places, and 2 to first place... and there are 2 races per weekend, making it possible to win a full set every race weekend. Toyo also does a contingency program in TT, but the reward is for the end of season winners, and only Toyo bucks towards tires, not as much as Hoosier gives away.

Don't get me wrong, I have driven on Toyos and I like them too, but there is something about that super stiff sidewall of the hoosiers, and the much more soft sidewall of the Toyo tire that has me sold.

It is one of the reasons I am going to drive in ITA/PTE... not to mention I get them pretty cheap!

[TheFence]

Have lots of laps with Hoosier R6 DOT Slick. Given it was a larger tire but they were on a larger car.
Have some laps on the Toyo/SM tires.

Ill take the Hoosier.

[Kyle Burkhardt]

Have lots of laps with Hoosier R6 DOT Slick. Given it was a larger tire but they were on a larger car.
Have some laps on the Toyo/SM tires.

Ill take the Hoosier.

There's no doubt the Hoosier has superior grip. It's an economic issue. I got out of GTS and into SM to significantly reduce tire costs.

[davecarama]

There's no doubt the Hoosier has superior grip. It's an economic issue. I got out of GTS and into SM to significantly reduce tire costs.

Just curious, so please don't read this is me being condescending.

What are you seeing is the problem with cost? Hoosier SM6 are $173.95 Retail (SM6 and R6 are the same compound only at a cheaper price). Toyo RA1 are what, $140-$180 depending on where you get them, then you pay for shipping and shaving and they cost the same as the Hoosier anyway.

I don't see performance drop being as greatly exaggerated as described above. Perhaps because I have been using the tiny light anemic in power Miata, and not a monster beefy GT car (who knows). I do agree that new R6 Hoosiers are faster than older R6 Hoosiers, but I think older Hoosiers are still as fast or faster than the Toyo RA1. They just drive so differently, you need to keep that in mind too. It could take some getting used to.

As for longevity, The Hoosiers work great down to the (sticky) cords. Most of the Miatas in ITA here in the DC region are using Hoosiers, and buying only 1-2 sets per season (all depending on when they cord the tires). I know one of the DC ITA guys bought 2 sets last season, and got race wins and track records on every track, every time he raced, no matter the number of cycles on the tire.

I never had to purchase Toyo tires. How many sets do you guys go through per season?

Dave

[dmathias]

Don't get me wrong - I like Hoosiers a lot - and 'what tire to spec' has been debated to death for years. . . but molded tires require that you have a separate, dedicated rain tire that cannot be used as an intermediate as it wears ($ cha-ching). And do we allow Dirt Stockers?

In my experience after 8-10 heat cycles Hoosiers lose 1+ seconds/lap.

Not trying to bad-mouth IT, but it's a different animal than SM. There is a wide variety of cars in IT and possibly a wider degree of prep levels, i.e., less parity by definition.

No doubt about it - the racers who can afford it will buy new tires every weekend no matter what brand is spec'd. For budget racers I'm convinced that Toyos have a longer usable life.

[Kyle Burkhardt]

+1. If I run 8 weekends, I'd need 8 sets of Hoosiers cause someone else is going to be running stickers on any given weekend. Hoosiers with more than 2-3 cycles on them don't stand a chance against stickers. I've been there. I can do a season on Toyos on 3 sets (and the third will get me through a couple of events the next year).

Plus, Hoosiers cost me $250 per for GTS.

[Qik Nip]

Okay, one "mo" time ... I've run a lot more RA1's than SM6's,and have no ax to grind against Toyo. Most of my Toyo's deliver 15+ good cycles but all three or so sets of the Hoosiers that I've used also gave me 15+ solid heat cycles. That equivilency aside, the SM6's were (for me)decidedly faster on corner entry.

As for premature wear, I've had at least one set of each Toyos RA1's and 888's that were absolutely shot after six cycles and have never had that occur with a set of Hoosiers. BTW, the Hoosier folks are at every SCCA event and are reasonable to deal with.

Regardless of who we deal with, we need a molded RACE tire and contingency payments to regional SCCA racers. The fact is those folks are subsidizing the National class (where, ironically the fattest wallet racers are). BTW, I do believe a SM6 is about the same weight and weight as a 3/32 shaved RA1.
Rick

[Kyle Burkhardt]

Yes, you can get 15 heat cycles out of a Hoosier. And, yes, you it may still have more grip than a Toyo. But anyone on a sticker hoosier will drive circles around your 15 cycle tires. Period. So, then you have a choice if you want Hoosier as your spec tire. Be happy spending less on tires and running 3-4 secs off pace, or have a sticker set available at every event.

I've driven and competed on both tires on the same car, and that's my experience.

[dmathias]

Just curious, to the folks that want Hoosiers, what would you want as a rain tire? Open or this?
http://www.racetires...dot-radial-wet/

[Qik Nip]

Yes, you can get 15 heat cycles out of a Hoosier. And, yes, you it may still have more grip than a Toyo. But anyone on a sticker hoosier will drive circles around your 15 cycle tires. Period. So, then you have a choice if you want Hoosier as your spec tire. Be happy spending less on tires and running 3-4 secs off pace, or have a sticker set available at every event.

I've driven and competed on both tires on the same car, and that's my experience.

Kyle:
My personal experience runing SM's for seven years doesn't match your experience in another class. With respect to the RA1, it's normally late in the life of the tire that it delivers it's best times.

As for SM6 Hoosier, they may be fall off more than a RA1, but they start faster and when they do fall off , it's certainly not 3-4 seconds. More like one. Realistically any tire in its prime will beat one that's done for.
Rick

[wheel]

First, nobody that I have ever encountered, shaves sticker Hoosiers. Second, yes, fresh tires, whether Toyo or Hoosier, work better than old tires.
In Midiv, the major support, at the track, has come from Hoosier and Charlie Clark's Goodyear trailer. There has never been any support from Toyo.
P.S. Just saw the question about rains. The Hoosier rains are awesome rain tires. They are light years ahead of the Toyos un-shaved, and keep their performance potential for a lot of cycles, if you don't run them on dry pavement.
As an aside, I ran one set of Hoosier A6's for every lap, of all qualifying sessions and then the race, at the 2007 Runoffs, at Topeka. It was damp, or cold, or both all week. I finished 3rd in ASedan.
wheel

[Danny Steyn]

Kyle:
My personal experience runing SM's for seven years doesn't match your experience in another class. With respect to the RA1, it's normally late in the life of the tire that it delivers it's best times.

As for SM6 Hoosier, they may be fall off more than a RA1, but they start faster and when they do fall off , it's certainly not 3-4 seconds. More like one. Realistically any tire in its prime will beat one that's done for.
Rick

Rick and Kyle - you both make good points. As a guy whol lives inside the data, and who often changes tires mid practice session, I can tell you the following...

• Hoosiers are MUCh faster when they are brand new (stickers)
• Hoosiers are generally NEVER faster than when they are new
• Hoosiers are much faster than RA-1's on some tracks
• RA-1's are much faster than Hoosiers on some tracks
• RA-1's are faster when brand new (stickers) on some tracks
• RA-1's are much faster when near the end of their life (7-10 heat cycles) on some tracks

So it horses for courses, (or tires for tracks). If the tire is opened, those with the money will have them all. If the tire is spec'd as a Hoosier, or as an RA-1, those with the money will test and find out what tire shave or heat cycle works best. This will never change.

I personally dont care which tire we have, I have been happy on both. I think the RA-1 does a decent job, but Hoosier's on track service is excllent and Toyo's is NON EXISTENT

I also think that opening up the rain tire is a BAD idea, as just in the dry, there are better tires for full wet, semi and damp conditions. We know. We have tested several compounds and several shaves and have pretty definitive data, so opening it up will increase the tire budget.

Just my $0.02

[Cy Peake]

Hey Danny, how often are you on driving on new Toyos? I used 5 sets (4/32 shave) last season while double dipping (ITS/STU) every race weekend, and we had a bunch of rain races. I have no idea how many races that came to...maybe 30-35. Add instructing at 2 SCCA schools and 4-6 practice days in there. My Toyos tend to heat cycle out before they become rubber challenged. They get blue around the edges and the rubber gets hard, and they get slow. So I'm looking at a $3500+ tire budget per season. What's yours?

[Tom Sager]

I don't think there is much chance of tires becoming open in SCCA. Two reasons:

1. It puts the class further away from "spec". Not many will support that.
2. If the club benefits financially from having a contract with one tire maker, open tires would most likely cost the club money.

[Danny Steyn]

Hey Danny, how often are you on driving on new Toyos? I used 5 sets (4/32 shave) last season while double dipping (ITS/STU) every race weekend, and we had a bunch of rain races. I have no idea how many races that came to...maybe 30-35. Add instructing at 2 SCCA schools and 4-6 practice days in there. My Toyos tend to heat cycle out before they become rubber challenged. They get blue around the edges and the rubber gets hard, and they get slow. So I'm looking at a $3500+ tire budget per season. What's yours?

Cy - I run about the same number of races each year as you do, but I suspect I am using a lot more tires than you. Some tracks need new rubber, some dont. Some tracks love the blue tint on a well cycled worn out RA-1. Using that same tire on another track will send you backwards faster than the dreaded '99 misfire!

Now remember we are discussing what it takes to win, not to race. If you just want to do laps, even fast ones at the front of the field, then RA-1's will give surprisingly great results, well into the 10-15 heat cycles. We use those Toyos until they cord, sometimes just for lapping, breaking in an engine, or getting our setup dialled in. But racing to win is another story. Those well worn RA-1's certainly can win, but only on certain tracks. On others you need brand new rubber.

But with regards to the Hoosier, it is never going to be as fast as that first heat cycle. And you have to drive the Hoosier VERY differently than you do the RA-1 otherwise you wont get the benefit of the tire.

Now then again, my data might be corrupt, and your mileage and driving style might produce completely different results!!! And I am sure that others have developed VERY different opinions and experiences over the years, compared to my short 3 year data sample.

[davecarama]

Just curious, to the folks that want Hoosiers, what would you want as a rain tire? Open or this?
http://www.racetires...dot-radial-wet/

I have no doubt that if it were requested of Hoosier to make an SM6WET tire, they would fulfill that request at the drop of a hat, especially if it meant becoming the series spec tire. It is my experience that Hoosier wants people to drive on their tires, so much so that they have support at every track event, and fantastic contingency awards programs.

I'll mention the thoughts about a SM6WET to my distributor on Monday and see what he says... but if it ends up happening, I get the credit (and everyone here owes me 1 beer)

[dmathias]

And if it doesn't happen you'll buy everyone a beer?

[davecarama]

And if it doesn't happen you'll buy everyone a beer?

Hmm... One beer for everyone to share? Sure!