140 replies to this topic

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

That is not possible, everyone knows a 1.6 is not copmpetitive and if you are getting beat by guys that don't know the racing line, I am officially dissowning you

Jim you cant disown your slightly retarded brother (me)just because im mentally slow. Your my southern brother and brothers dont shake brothers hug.

[Tom Sager]

Four national championships were won with cars built in a junk yard

Shows you the leap in progress junk yards have made over the years. Most of the guys I've met this new milenium who are in the junk business have clean fingernails and a full set of teeth too.  Who woulda thunk it?  

[Bruce Wilson]

Four national championships were won with cars built in a junk yard

 

I can just picture a bunch of mechanics in clean whites and mud boots!

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Kyle,instead I think ill just rent your car for the year !

 

Dont worry I wont put a mark on it !

[Keith Novak]

I'm wondering how much time people think a 40k car saves over a decently prepped home built?  I've hit a steep part of the learning curve and I'm still 1.5 - 2 sec off the poles set by very fast left coast cars/drivers.  My data shows me that with more consistency I could be 1 sec faster w/o changing anything on the car, and at my skill level there's more to be gained just by me driving faster.  My setup is improving but done in my own garage through experimentation.  My motor is a re-ringed block with a pro head and it's never been dyno-tuned so I have the opportunity to improve power (and will do so).

 

That tells me right there it's less than 1 sec of car benefit with much more room for improvement on my own car.  I've raced those cars (when rented to less uber fast drivers) and I do have to draft to keep up on the straights but I'd bet there's about .5 sec of engine there.  Then there's still room for personal improvement and setup improvement.  Adding those things up it takes most of the 1.5-2 sec out leaving probably a few 10ths for car optimization. 

 

I understand at the very pointy end, a couple 10ths is important.  For that fraction of a second to actually matter however requires a lot more driver and setup than most in our cleass have mastered.  Seems to me that aside from few select drivers battling a few select others, the extra $20k seems like peeing yourself in a dark suit.  Sure it gives you a nice warm feeling but nobody else can tell the difference.

[Mitch Reading]

Even at $10k for a car plus $1k per weekend, this will never be a poor mans sport.

 

But I do not see the demise of Spec Miata the way some of you do. 70 cars at the Runoffs, 350 different drivers entered National races, by far the most popular class at Regional races (at least around here). My shop is fuller than ever.

 

What I do see is a shift in demographics, and myself and other shops may be a portion of the cause for the shifting. Dwindeling are the home built budget cars. Gone are the home built SUPER budget guys. Instead we have more guys coming from the Porsche/BMW crowd. They saw how much fun we where having, and brought their wallets into Spec Miata. They have the financial means to spend  BMW money, they are just doing it with a Miata. For the exact same reasons as made this class so popular; cost effective, reliable, fun to drive, great competitors and close competition.

 

Will a 100% driver in a 80% car beat a 80% driver in a 100% car? Almost every time. But when a 100% driver wants to beat another 100% driver it may come down to the better car. And at that point it may come down to the best prep/parts, which costs money.

 

Dave

Agreed and well said.  I absolutely see this as well.  Ask SAC with the guys at Monticello are doing...

[Brian Ghidinelli]

improving but done in my own garage through experimentation.  My motor is a re-ringed block with a pro head and it's never been dyno-tuned so I have the opportunity to improve power (and will do so).

 

Let's just start with this because I hear this kind of approach from a lot of people (not singling you out here Keith).  

 

If you haven't taken the $100 and couple of hours to dyno your engine and make sure you're not just giving up an easy 3-5hp, then you're unlikely to be paying attention to the countless other time-consuming details that add up to a peak performance.  What was said earlier: development is a constant effort.  It doesn't just stop. Ever. In any class, anywhere.  Like Michael Jordan roughly said, if you're not practicing, someone else is, and that guy will beat you. 

 

I built my car in my garage with my brother-in-law who is a mechanic.  I got a very good deal on a caged donor and with lots of help from Haag Performance, we put the thing on track for about 22k which included a second-hand AIM data system, a Sparco Circuit seat and a pro motor.  We did everything we possibly could ourselves including the horrible job of painting the car in my garage (which was an epic, epic mistake, but a good learning experience).  With that car, we won the SFR regional championship against an average of 50 SMs per weekend.  Then we put more time and money into the car, won a couple of nationals, qualified 6th at the June Sprints and finished 9th at the Runoffs (after starting further back than pace deserved due to a penalty, but that's life). 

 

Don't believe the sky is falling; it can absolutely be done on a budget.

 

Can you race in another class for less?  Sure.  You can also get the same effect of driving in circles with wildly different talent and prep levels by going to an HPDE with a laptimer.  It would cost you nothing other than the gas to get to and from the track in your street car.  

 

We race Spec Miata because we want to compete and I would argue there is no better measuring stick, anywhere, at any cost point.

[Neil O]

This class is crazy competitive, and what is needed to win the runoffs is another discussion. (car prep, setup, track experience, seat time, luck etc) 

 

But, saying you need a $40K car to run up front in most regionals and nationals is total B.S.  

The class has changed BUT, you still can build a really good car for around $20K.    

 

$40K is a show car with the best of the best.  The peeling clear-coat, simple gauge package, fire bottle and rattle can interior is not slowing me down.  Sure, getting an excellent motor is tough and Hoosiers are expensive but, where is there a better place to race?  I'm not looking to make laps, I'm here to race and learn.  

 

Figure out your budget and get out there.  

[MPR22]

I'm wondering how much time people think a 40k car saves over a decently prepped home built?  I've hit a steep part of the learning curve and I'm still 1.5 - 2 sec off the poles set by very fast left coast cars/drivers.

 

Keith's post is a great example of learning driver with non top prep car.  

 

At 90 MPH 2 seconds difference is 264 feet or roughly 20 car lengths.  I don't believe the difference in a top prep car and junkyard build is 20 car lengths, with the same driver/same conditions.  Maybe half of that but not all of it.  

 

Add a pro head and drop .2-.3 tenths.

Pro motor maybe another .1-.2 tenths

 

That last half second starts getting expensive in prep money and time.    

[Waterboy]

 The peeling clear-coat, simple gauge package, fire bottle and rattle can interior is not slowing me down.

 

He's not kidding, you should the thing  He is fast though.

 

The last race of the MARRS series the top 12 drivers were within .6 seconds of one another.  Cars in those top 12 ranged in cost anywhere from the mid teen's to some that I am sure are in the 30 to 40 range.  My car cost $12,000 and then I put a pro motor in it, so under 20k, I won the race on Saturday from an 8th place starting position.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

After several of these posts I have become convinced...

 

To quite! my 35k car didnt bring me a single win at a majors this year, I dont think i deserve that fate.   

 

I was going to build a 50k car this time around since 35k didnt getter done 

 

I am now scraping all my plans and I am gonna sell my 35k and save the 50k and I am gonna buy a 1985 VW scirocco and race in IT for fun and to gain alot of racecraft, I can get a p1 trophy in that class every time for a mere 4k and 20k in annual repairs to my POS car...  and I will take whats left after my vw purchase and go race grand am where if i can get Boris Said as my co driver we can get a p5 finish quite often!  Oh shitz i dont think Boris drives a honda fit????  I dont evn need no stinking co driver. I just gotta beat the worlds fastest 13 year old and his daddy!

 

New years resolution I am going to join the Prod site for next season and leave all you guys that just think money is everything behind forever.  I will be over there will Dewhorts flying high talkin about torq and hp curves on the 1000+ models that are alowed to race...

[Danny Steyn]

Can you race in another class for less?  Sure.  You can also get the same effect of driving in circles with wildly different talent and prep levels by going to an HPDE with a laptimer.  It would cost you nothing other than the gas to get to and from the track in your street car.  

We race Spec Miata because we want to compete and I would argue there is no better measuring stick, anywhere, at any cost point.

 

^^^^^^  THIS - NAIL - HEAD -     Brian for President!!!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

since quiting i WOULD LIKE TO SUM UP MY FELING ABOUT sm WITH this video

 

[chris haldeman]

This song makes me think Spec Miata is singing to me.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=tEUpzqSkaPo

[Keith Novak]

Let's just start with this because I hear this kind of approach from a lot of people (not singling you out here Keith).  

 

If you haven't taken the $100 and couple of hours to dyno your engine and make sure you're not just giving up an easy 3-5hp, then you're unlikely to be paying attention to the countless other time-consuming details that add up to a peak performance.  What was said earlier: development is a constant effort.  It doesn't just stop. Ever. In any class, anywhere.  Like Michael Jordan roughly said, if you're not practicing, someone else is, and that guy will beat you.

 

I completely agree.  I decided that for me personally, I needed to focus on driving faster and HP is the most expensive way to get there.  I focused on reliability, driver interface, suspension, and braking first based on places I thought would directly relate to driving faster regardless of power.  Many of those, like going over every suspension component very carefully are time consuming but virtually free until you find something that needs replacement.  Owning scales and spending time experimenting with setup...  also time consuming but quickly paid for themselves and now I can experiment all I want.  Actually experimenting with tires and suspension.  I've tried some pretty radical things and learned a few things that work and many others that make for a very scary drive.  Even things down to changing my window net and adjusting my clutch pedal have allowed me to drive faster.  I found a whole laundry list of stuff to go over very carefuly as I went about it.  Now I'm finally getting to the point where I make a lot less bonehead errors and can start to justify looking at more power but 1st I'll work on the tuning and then I'll look at parts.  All those other little things aren't a one time deal though so even starting with the very best equipment, there's a lot of time and effort along the way to make it perform like it should.

[38bfast]

Part of a build that cost so much is replacing any part that can fail because it is old. As the old saying goes first you have to finish to finish first. If you are willing to gamble that the 150000 mile part is good to go you can save money.

The other issue I see is people get a top flight car and won't do the mataintace to keep it a top flight car.

As far as garage built cars go yes you can build a good one but in most cases they just don't know what they don't know. I have run across many cars that look great but just aren't fast.

IMHO SM is one of the hardest classes to win in. Many are leaving nothing on the table, so if you don't have the full package it makes it much harder to get to the pointy end. As we all know a .1 of a second a lap can be the differance of a win or a 10th place.

[Dan Cooper]

I want to build a new 1.6 the NB is nice but the old car had so much character.

You build it, ill drive it!

[ner88]

Is there any hope??

This weekend a certain 99 Miata ran the regional races at the Glen. I know many of you know the car.......

It won the SM race and turned a 2:17.2, track record is a 2:17.0 but with a larger restrictor.

We pulled the restrictor and weight for STL and turned a 2:15.8

The motor has over 60 hours, same motor and car that won the 2012 NASA Championship.

Car was built many years ago to run SSB.

It has stock sway bar end links and rubber brake hoses.

My point...a good driver and good preparation can win over the most money spent!

By the way, we did all that at the Glen on the same Toyo RA1's that won the championship.

[Brocodile]

This thread is finally getting to the point. To summarize:

 

1. The picture is much larger than hp and tq.

 

2. From a mechanical standpoint, it's a holistic thing - it's about the whole car. A simple dragging caliper can invisibly negate all that expensive hp. A poor setup can delay you from getting back to throttle out of a critical corner by a precious tenth or two, again negating the benefit of a monster motor. Neglected maintenance can result in broken belts and leaking hoses, resulting in DNF's or worse. The list is almost endless.

 

 

3. Fundamentally, building a car, maintaining it and prepping it is not about money: it's about time and knowledge. If you have the time and the know-how (oh, and a body shop, mechanical shop, machine shop and a few hundred pounds of tools), you can build a front running national-level SM for less than half the cost of a the best pro-built car. If you have to farm out the motor and trans, the savings are less, but still substantial.

 

4. For those of us who lack the time and/or knowledge, money is the only alternative. Fortunately there are people who know what they are doing  who are willing to spend the time necessary to build an engine, a trans, a cage, or an entire car in exchange for money. This allows a great many more people to successfully compete in SM than if everybody had to do their own work. Hooray for free enterprise. Unfortunately, for those who have neither time, nor knowledge, nor money, driving a top-level SM is pretty well out of reach unless you have a really, really good friend. But take heart - for most drivers, it wouldn't make much difference anyway. See (5), below.

 

5. In the end, it comes down to the driver. At some point, time and money spent on car build and prep runs up against the law of diminishing returns. Beyond that point, the driver is better off working on himself rather than the car. For the vast majority of drivers, that point is well short of $40,000.

 

6. Which brings us to the final point - money can buy a great car, and it can buy a crew and even a coach, but, in the end, acquiring the skills it takes to run at the front in SM takes a huge investment of time and effort by the driver. It also requires the driver to look at himself first when searching for speed. Blaming the car is a fatal trap. When I first began racing, I didn't own a car. Instead, I drove Tom Fowler's rentals. I knew Tom's cars were quick because, on test days, he would put down laps so I could use the data for comparison. It was humbling. For two full seasons, each time I came in from a test, qualifier or race, the crew would ask me, "How was the car?" My standard answer was, "Still faster than I am. Don't change a thing."  Only when I felt I had fully mastered the basics of car control did I begin experimenting with setup. Once I was convinced I had fully exploited the potential of the rental cars, I had Tom build a car for me. It's a top build and I won a regional championship in it...but I haven't come close to a podium in a Majors. We'll keep working on the car, but it's already good enough that I doubt there's much more speed to be found there.

 

It's down to the driver.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

This thread is finally getting to the point. To summarize:
 
1. The picture is much larger than hp and tq.
 
2. From a mechanical standpoint, it's a holistic thing - it's about the whole car. A simple dragging caliper can invisibly negate all that expensive hp. A poor setup can delay you from getting back to throttle out of a critical corner by a precious tenth or two, again negating the benefit of a monster motor. Neglected maintenance can result in broken belts and leaking hoses, resulting in DNF's or worse. The list is almost endless.
 
 
3. Fundamentally, building a car, maintaining it and prepping it is not about money: it's about time and knowledge. If you have the time and the know-how (oh, and a body shop, mechanical shop, machine shop and a few hundred pounds of tools), you can build a front running national-level SM for less than half the cost of a the best pro-built car. If you have to farm out the motor and trans, the savings are less, but still substantial.
 
4. For those of us who lack the time and/or knowledge, money is the only alternative. Fortunately there are people who know what they are doing  who are willing to spend the time necessary to build an engine, a trans, a cage, or an entire car in exchange for money. This allows a great many more people to successfully compete in SM than if everybody had to do their own work. Hooray for free enterprise. Unfortunately, for those who have neither time, nor knowledge, nor money, driving a top-level SM is pretty well out of reach unless you have a really, really good friend. But take heart - for most drivers, it wouldn't make much difference anyway. See (5), below.
 
5. In the end, it comes down to the driver. At some point, time and money spent on car build and prep runs up against the law of diminishing returns. Beyond that point, the driver is better off working on himself rather than the car. For the vast majority of drivers, that point is well short of $40,000.
 
6. Which brings us to the final point - money can buy a great car, and it can buy a crew and even a coach, but, in the end, acquiring the skills it takes to run at the front in SM takes a huge investment of time and effort by the driver. It also requires the driver to look at himself first when searching for speed. Blaming the car is a fatal trap. When I first began racing, I didn't own a car. Instead, I drove Tom Fowler's rentals. I knew Tom's cars were quick because, on test days, he would put down laps so I could use the data for comparison. It was humbling. For two full seasons, each time I came in from a test, qualifier or race, the crew would ask me, "How was the car?" My standard answer was, "Still faster than I am. Don't change a thing."  Only when I felt I had fully mastered the basics of car control did I begin experimenting with setup. Once I was convinced I had fully exploited the potential of the rental cars, I had Tom build a car for me. It's a top build and I won a regional championship in it...but I haven't come close to a podium in a Majors. We'll keep working on the car, but it's already good enough that I doubt there's much more speed to be found there.
 
It's down to the driver.

Damn Skip, you just took the fun out of this thread !