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#21
Alberto

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One of my biggest complaints about guns in America is not that people have guns, the guns never killed anyone but the dumb ass with the gun is the problem. Kind of like the retired cop that shot a dude in a movie theater for texting , now that is stupid.

 

My point is if we are going to give people guns we need to do more to give them some training and ethics, our troops are trained, cops are trained but we give Joe blow a gun and give them little training on using it. True Training on the use of a hand gun would not prevent the dude in the movie theater from shooting the texter, but hopefully they would respect the power that they have.

 

No easy answer to this if there is one. strong feelings on both sides.

 

I also think there is parity is SM, now that is controversial

 

That's pretty much how I feel as well.  I don't care if someone wants to own a gun.  Go ahead.  I personally have no use for one but I know that if I had one, I would be tempted to use it - especially in a fit of rage or anger.  I'm 40something and have lived, worked and gone to school in some of the shittiest neighborhoods in Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and North Philly during race riots originated by the Rodney King beating.  Have never needed a gun or a knife or needed to kill anyone.  Hurt them, yes.  Kill them, no.

 

Some people don't seem to understand the responsibility that comes with owning a gun.  Others don't seem to have the mental stability or even mental ability to own one...


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#22
38bfast

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Thank you Cliff. Great product.
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#23
James York

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 Others don't seem to have the mental stability or even mental ability to own one...

Maybe we should mandate the same mental prowess for voting......


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#24
Ron Alan

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  I personally have no use for one but I know that if I had one, I would be tempted to use it - especially in a fit of rage or anger.

 

 Have never needed a gun or a knife or needed to kill anyone.  Hurt them, yes.  Kill them, no.

 

Some people don't seem to understand the responsibility that comes with owning a gun.

 

 Others don't seem to have the mental stability or even mental ability to own one...

A reply to each sentence...

 

Glad you recognize this in yourself...hope for your wife's sake you only have butter knifes in the house  :D

 

99.9% of us have never needed to kill anyone...but feel owning a weapon gives us a chance against the 1 in 1000 nut job that does.

 

This is a joke right? Legal gun owners take the responsibility of owning firearms as serious as a heart attack! Those who purchased theirs behind the local liquor store for $20 and a bag of crack are the ones you must be speaking of.

 

Reread the last 2 sentences.

 

 

Unfortunately we are a society driven by emotional blackmail. Look past fixing the root cause and only focus on what makes us feel good. These debates will never end. But they make for some great words of wisdom as in Jay's 2nd post...


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#25
Walter Vetter

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Reducing gun violence by arming more people with escalating firepower is like trying to fix a leaky bucket by continuously filling it with water.

 

What I really want know is -  what is "cool" about a bullet that shreads human tissue? How is that "cool?"


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#26
Sean - MiataCage

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Reducing gun violence by arming more people with escalating firepower is like trying to fix a leaky bucket by continuously filling it with water.

 

What I really want know is -  what is "cool" about a bullet that shreads human tissue? How is that "cool?"

 

I am not a gun owner and have nothing against gun owners.  Just my personal choice not to own one. 

 

So RG.... Based on your theory above Chicago should be the safest place in America based on it's strict gun rules right?  How about Mexico where guns are illegal?  Those are pretty safe right?  Are you sure you shouldn't be racing in Spec Prius.... Since those are soo good for the environment and all.


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#27
Walter Vetter

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Sean, I have no problem with private gun ownership. I grew up a country boy, I had my own shotgun and rifle by the time I was 11 years old. I still own guns.

 

What I'll never understand is the morbid, almost gleeful lust for continually more destructive instruments of death. No one needs a bullet that eviscerates its target for home protection. (personal observation: those who have first hand experience with combat and other types of traumatic violence generally find nothing "cool" about it.)

 

What the does the environment and Priuses have to do with this conversation?


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#28
Sean - MiataCage

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RG.... Why do you get to decide what no one needs?  Maybe the anointed one can try to run an Executive order and bypass congress and the constitution and eliminate all the ammo you feel is un-necessary, except for the bad people of course because they will always get their hands on it.

 

Why not respect a man and fellow racer for living the american dream as a business owner.  Regardless of your feel on his product he is taking care of himself, his family, his employees, friends etc and is not a drain on society.  My guess is (i don't know him) is that he pays his "fair share" of taxes.

 

Sean


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Reducing gun violence by arming more people with escalating firepower is like trying to fix a leaky bucket by continuously filling it with water.

 

What I really want know is -  what is "cool" about a bullet that shreads human tissue? How is that "cool?"

So to clarify based on this and your post before, you have no issue with the right to bear arms and ammo that kills. But an issue with ammo that kills better than another ammo(the intended target still dies). An i would not say it "shreds" human tissue...just makes a few more holes. Based on your logic, you should throw all your shotgun ammo away...the best short range weapon you can easily own and the most devastating. No one walks away from a center mass or head shot(within25ft) ...and its not pretty. Just the facts.

 

I respect your right to have an opinion...it is still a free country. But I'd respectfully disagree. Ironically, our current commander in chief has been the best arms and ammo salesman in the last century!


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#30
Walter Vetter

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I want a bazooka or a LAW rocket. Nothin says home defense like one of those bad boys. Anyone got a problem with that?

 

Oh, and some hand grenades too... I need those.


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#31
Walter Vetter

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An i would not say it "shreds" human tissue...just makes a few more holes.

“This bullet is designed to take out all your vital organs…inferior bullets won’t be a problem anymore,” Brown said.


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#32
Ron Alan

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“This bullet is designed to take out all your vital organs…inferior bullets won’t be a problem anymore,” Brown said.

Like I side...more holes...but still dead :noidea:  One shot vs 5! Do remember with your "next level comments" we are talking about ammo for legal to own weapons...surprised you didn't throw in tank!


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#33
Jim Drago

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What I'll never understand is the morbid, almost gleeful lust for continually more destructive instruments of death. No one needs a bullet that eviscerates its target for home protection. (personal observation: those who have first hand experience with combat and other types of traumatic violence generally find nothing "cool" about it.)


I agree and disagree at the same time :(. I own several guns and have one at almost every desk at my office as downtown Memphis is not a great place to be "safe", nor is my type of business. I pray that I never have to use my gun on anyone. I would never be "tempted" to use it. I realize the finality of pulling that trigger. I agree that it is not "cool" to celebrate the damage and devastation that is caused by firearms. Unfortunately there are legal gun owners that are should not be permitted to own guns IMO. I fear those that are tempted to use a firearm to settle a dispute or those who think they are in a video game and don't understand the finality of their decisions.
On the other side, if I decide to pull the trigger on my pistol, my intent is to stop someone in their tracks. I want to use the best rounds and pistol I can to accomplish that task. Much like racing and a race car. Be prepared with the best safety equipment you can afford , pray you never need it, but if you do it is nice to know you are giving yourself the best chance. As far as these particular rounds go, I applaud Cliffs design and ingenuity.
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#34
Walter Vetter

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I don't think I have an exclusive on "next level comments" in this thread.


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#35
Bad Rusty

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The first and second amendments are alive and well in the mazdaracers forum.  I thought the .416 and the .338 Lapua rounds were "cool" when I first shot them.  Thank a Veteran the next time you see them.  They allow a "Veteran Member" and anyone else to speak up/out.  Of course, most who were downrange probably wished they would have had this round....


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#36
38bfast

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I agree and disagree at the same time :(. I own several guns and have one at almost every desk at my office as downtown Memphis is not a great place to be "safe", nor is my type of business. I pray that I never have to use my gun on anyone. I would never be "tempted" to use it. I realize the finality of pulling that trigger. I agree that it is not "cool" to celebrate the damage and devastation that is caused by firearms. Unfortunately there are legal gun owners that are should not be permitted to own guns IMO. I fear those that are tempted to use a firearm to settle a dispute or those who think they are in a video game and don't understand the finality of their decisions.
On the other side, if I decide to pull the trigger on my pistol, my intent is to stop someone in their tracks. I want to use the best rounds and pistol I can to accomplish that task. Much like racing and a race car. Be prepared with the best safety equipment you can afford , pray you never need it, but if you do it is nice to know you are giving yourself the best chance. As far as these particular rounds go, I applaud Cliffs design and ingenuity.
Jim

What Jim said

 

As society progresses or rather is regressing the need for personal protection is in greater need than ever. When shit really hits the fan all of those agains being able to protect themselves will be suffering from severe regret. If i am forced to use a firearm to protect myself I want to have the best equipment legally possible. I also feel that are laws are far to restrictive for what is legal. 

 

Contrary to what are president thinks the second amendment is very clear on this subject. 

 

An armed society is a polite society. 

 

Again Cliff thank you. Your product may save my life one day and remove an undesirable from the gene pool. 


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#37
Alberto

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A reply to each sentence...

 

Glad you recognize this in yourself...hope for your wife's sake you only have butter knifes in the house  :D

 

99.9% of us have never needed to kill anyone...but feel owning a weapon gives us a chance against the 1 in 1000 nut job that does.

 

This is a joke right? Legal gun owners take the responsibility of owning firearms as serious as a heart attack! Those who purchased theirs behind the local liquor store for $20 and a bag of crack are the ones you must be speaking of.

 

Reread the last 2 sentences.

 

 

Unfortunately we are a society driven by emotional blackmail. Look past fixing the root cause and only focus on what makes us feel good. These debates will never end. But they make for some great words of wisdom as in Jay's 2nd post...

 

 

And my reply to each of yours:

 

Haha, thankfully the wife doesn't piss me off like that.  Never has.  Hopefully never will.  I'm overall a nice guy with a calm personality and a thick skin.  I also have a really bad temper when that 'line' is crossed.

 

Totally understand with the 99% but the prior comments seem to be made from the perspective that the gun wielder wants to shoot to kill. 

 

Not a joke.  I've met all too many gun owners and off duty cops that start brandishing their guns at private parties where everyone is drinking and trying to have a good time.  Some people just think guns are cool and gives them a sense of power.  They do not seem to respect it properly.  Had a couple of off duty cop acquaintances pull them out and point them around in a few of those parties.  they thought it was cool.  I thought they were fudging morons. 

 

Other people suffer from mental illness, depression and what not and probably would be safer to themselves and the community if they didn't have one.  Yet somehow these people that committed these horrible school and public shootings had access. 

 

Yes I agree that the people carrying a gun and a bag of illicit buzz enhancers are a far bigger threat.  I've met them also.  They got theirs hot - presumably stolen from a responsible gun owner's locked gun safe - or somehow managed to buy one legitimately.  This is where background checks and stuff like that would help IMO.  Any legitimate, responsible person can fill out a form and wait a week for one. 

 

 

Like Jim, we used to have a concealed gun at my dad's business back in my youth.  We had enough cash on hand to want it for 'protection'.  Never had to use it.  If I did, I wouldn't want to kill the person I was pointing it at unless I really needed to.  If someone were to have walked in and pulled out a gun, I'd be happy to give the scumbag cash and have them be on their way.  I can always earn more if I'm alive and kicking.  If I draw on them, then I would have escalated a situation that could have easily been resolved with minimal risk.  Thieves and criminals would typically try and break-in at night anyway.

 

 

Anyway, definitely an ingenious design on the bullet.  I just don't understand that perspective but to each their own.

 

:cheers:


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#38
Jim Drago

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I'm assuming most all of us are good people at heart... Ending someones life, even a scum bag with just cause etc would bother me for the rest of mine.
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#39
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I'm assuming most all of us are good people at heart... Ending someones life, even a scum bag with just cause etc would bother me for the rest of mine.

Which brings up a question, how many of us that own a gun could pull the triger on another human, scum bag or otherwise??? :noidea:


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#40
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I get what Rg Bargy and Alberto (and Jim) are saying. I remember just after 911. I was going down to the post office and I saw these young men (kids) that were very excited and hooping and hollering about just signing up and couldn't wait to get to Iraq and kill some rag heads. I understand completely having national pride and being excited to serve your country. But I thought to myself that these kids have no idea what they are talking about and that once they get there, they will find that killing people isn't all that it is cracked up to be. Ever watch the movie platoon? That was a major point in the film. That war and killing is not something to be excited about. A duty sometimes yes. A necessity sometimes yes. But not something to be celebrated, glamorized, or desired. I even get kids being excited to go to war. But men I think know better. And I think our Veterans know even more better. I am old enough to know people that went to Vietnam, non of them speak of it with fondness and longing, if they speak of it at all.

 

I don't begrudge this good man from making a good product and an effective and better way of killing people. Not at all. I am proud of him as an American and glad he is on our side. But the talk of killing is somber for me. Nothing exciting about it. That being said, I also get that you can be excited about talking about new guns and different ammo. Especially if that is your industry or hobby. But the moment that translates into a conversation about the application of those tools, I am not laughing anymore. I respect this work from an engineering perspective. Like Alberto, I am glad I have been able to use my skills in avoiding situations that could possible put me in the position of taking another mans life, maybe that means I am a pussy. But like Jim, I don't think I would ever forget it if I had to. But don't confuse me being a possible pussy with a lack of will to pull that trigger without hesitation if for some reason I found that I could no longer avoid a threat to my family. You will be dead and laying on the floor and I will be on my knees, shaken to the core for what I had just done.


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