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Everything Runoffs 2014

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#601
greengreengreen

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I have been around racing since I was born the day before my first 500 because of this guy.

 

http://historicindia...-ways-than-one/

 

When you get to the part about the depression it was my Grandfather who was hired as CFO that got them through the depression.  As you can imagine I have been around a lot of racing.  I was once foolish and was always for opening up the rules.  But now I believe this is the way a lazy man thinks.  Rules creep is the really the result of poorly written rules.  The engine builders wrote the current rules regarding the PC and they couldn't get it right.  The proper approach is decide what you want the class to look like in 3-5 years, find the most knowledgeable person you can, and have one guy write the rules.  No discussion.  Need clarification?  Ask 1 guy.

 

Committees suck!


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#602
38bfast

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I have been around racing since I was born the day before my first 500 because of this guy.
 
http://historicindia...-ways-than-one/
 
When you get to the part about the depression it was my Grandfather who was hired as CFO that got them through the depression.  As you can imagine I have been around a lot of racing.  I was once foolish and was always for opening up the rules.  But now I believe this is the way a lazy man thinks.  Rules creep is the really the result of poorly written rules.  The engine builders wrote the current rules regarding the PC and they couldn't get it right.  The proper approach is decide what you want the class to look like in 3-5 years, find the most knowledgeable person you can, and have one guy write the rules.  No discussion.  Need clarification?  Ask 1 guy.
 
Committees suck!


I as well have been racing my whole life. Pavement, dirt, water, air. The one thing that I have seen is either you spec and seal things tight or you open everything up. Anything in the middle will end with situations like we have now. There is going to be rules creep. History has proven it over and over again. It certainly is not what we want but are forced into It over and over again. Hind sight is always 20/20.
Ralph Provitz
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#603
Steve Scheifler

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If you get this far and feel you must have more to read, take a trip back almost exactly five years and learn more about how we got here. You may recognize some of the players, expectations, fears, confusion...

http://specmiataclas...hp?topic=1229.0
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#604
greengreengreen

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History has proven it over and over again. It certainly is not what we want but are forced into It over and over again. Hind sight is always 20/20.

 

One likely reason is special interests.  And history doesn't have to repeat itself.  I learn from my mistakes and manage to have excellent recall.



#605
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Before you start urging the rules folks to make what was found at the Runoffs legal (compliant), I will warn you that this is what causes rules creep and expense to all involved in the class. Once this happens, someone will find another place to fudge the rules and suddenly all the fast guys will have it. Then, that too will get caught and because the front guys have already spent the $$, all must do it and so on. And in the end, you will have an E Production car. We started in production in 1972 and it was mostly as delivered. Now, there nothing on the car as delivered.

If you make blending the cut legal, the blend will start to drift further until porting is allowed. Of course, then the motor will need more fuel and a higher compression ratio. Get the drift?

Is that what all want? If so, I'll see you in impound since I am production category chief for the Runoffs. If you do not want this made legal, I suggest you write the CRB now clearly stating this. Request they clarify the rule but not make it legal. Each of you now has a chance to contribute to the future of SM.

 

Spot on, Jim. In this case, the appeal contained some very articulate arguments in an effort to demonstrate ambiguity, but they were rejected. The rule is clear. The argument boiled down to "everybody's doing it". The rule didn't "creep". What we have here is "Compliance Creep" and "Enforcement Creep". The fudging likely started years ago and gradually crept from "de-burring" to "just cleaning up" to whatever it was at the Runoffs. Since removal of material isn't objectively measurable, it's easy to see why it was consistently overlooked in tech in the past. It's hard to see what's not there. It's also easy to see why some builders eventually began to see grey when there was none. One of the reasons the protest procedure exists is to point out such overlooked areas.

 

There are many problems with ex post facto legalization, not least among them being the fact that it really is Rules Creep, placing the burden on those who were compliant to rework their heads to meet the standard formerly used to gain an unfair advantage over them. Remember - the good intentions of those who thought they were buying legal, pro-built motors is not the issue. After all, those with legal motors had equally good intentions. The issue is: who should bear the consequences - those who received the benefit, albeit unwittingly, or those who did not?

 

To turn these lemons into lemonade, we don't need more rules or exceptions to rules. We need more compliance with the rules we already have. Things got out of hand. The protests in Daytona and at the runoffs were a necessary step in the right direction. CAVEAT: The protest procedure can be used for evil as well as good. Now that the protest taboo has been broken, I sincerely hope that it will not become a weapon of retribution or score-settling. Of all the things that can damage the Spec Miata class, that's one of the worst. Let's all get the best FAIR advantage available to us, and then go do what we like the most - RACE.


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#606
mikea

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Some of the most entertaining posts i have ever read, i came to add a few thoughts as an outsider that has raced SM and currently competes in a class that constantly has the same issues that are here. (PRO3 in the Northwest).

#1. I am shocked that the SCCA actually took action correctly and took the PR hit by doing whats right. This alone is a great step in the right direction for those looking for fair racing. (IMSA/Tudor this year surely hasnt).

#2. Will and others did what was right to make a bold statement at the big race about having fun and following the rules. Sure its easy to point fingers on some things but the findings don't tell me folks thought they were legal. They tell me those engine builders have done it to maximize their performance.

#3. The cheating reputation didn't come from this event, everyone knows to compete on a national level you push the envelope and find ways to go fast and most have joked about the SM expense to race in the big show. Remember some choose to push only so far while others interpret how far they are pushing them based on ambiguity of rules or at least their version of them...

#4. This is exactly what the class needed and I'm not sure why a clarification of rules is necessary... Seems like it was clarified during the protest of legal vs. not legal. Regardless of why you have a non compliant head is meaningless.. Its now your obligation to make it legal or choose to hope someone doesn't protest you.

#5. In all racing the saying goes... "It's only cheating if you get caught". Most know the only way to get caught is if they are specifically looking for what you did and most probably didn't think someone would.

I am not a cheater and when i bought my car (built) i took it to get heavily inspected to ensure i was in compliance. I do not believe the drivers were looking to cheat their way to a win, but they wanted to push every legal tolerance possible to be at the front end. This comes with that territory as sometimes there is human error that takes place (interpretation of rules, lapse in judgement etc).

Time to take some responsibility for yourself and use this as a time to ensure you have a legal car to the ruleset (maybe dial it back a notch if you think you are in the gray).

Final note - everyone knows to run top10 you need a helluva lot more than a non compliant motor... And i don't think anyone thinks these drivers are anything but exceptional including those who didnt finish top10 etc. Those that protested didn't target anyone in particular which is true sportsmanship... They ust wanted to shine some light (pun intended) on a rule that was being exploited. (Knowingly and unknowingly).
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#607
38bfast

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just some quick math. lets say there is 2000 heads out there that are non complaint. lets say that the average cost to have work done on the heads cost $1300 per head. Lets say a core head cost $400. $3,400,000.00


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#608
Steve Scheifler

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2000?

$1300?
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#609
Andrew Charbonneau

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Ok here I come :banana:


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#610
Andrew Charbonneau

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I think I have the answer will post something that will wake the the masses


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#611
Andrew Charbonneau

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I will bring my thought's which should scare a lot of peps and it may awake you like the awakening movie of robin Williams oooops


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#612
Andrew Charbonneau

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Has not a thing to do with anything other than the truth please hold posts for a monument of silence.


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#613
38bfast

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2000?
$1300?


Guesstimates Steve. What numbers would you guesstimate?

There is a lot more pro heads out there than full pro motors. The guy who is budget limited would slap a pro head on an OEM motor.
Ralph Provitz
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#614
Andrew Charbonneau

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I do have a awareness of this class and have a lot too say from 2004 to too date and speak in true wisdom and not beer.


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#615
Steve Scheifler

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Would the bartender please cut him off?
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#616
Andrew Charbonneau

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I as well as all of you want to win and money and love go hand and hand please realize that this sport is like a war and with the spoils of war come new friendships and enemies'. for example danny stein brought eboli to America should we be pissed no fix it.

 

my pal alex floated on a tire to America  bf Goodrich   . all kidding aside

 

I haven't talked to drago or posted for almoset a year because of the tool that didn't work but still race him like a person  .

 

 

here is the deal never met the guy who had the balls to do it but with that I applauded it weather or not we was lr=eagal  he is one of many .

 

 

I have been caught with none compliance does it make you a cheater you pay the ultimate due . I will stand here today and tell you this has been going on for over ten years

 

when I started hp 118 was a monster and 105 in spec racer was a monster  we noe have 130 plus and specracer has 103  wake up kids

 

 

still have alot to say will be in stay tune


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Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#617
Andrew Charbonneau

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by the way kyle weeb is a tool


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#618
Andrew Charbonneau

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thank you jim Creighton for speaking your mind in this class it needs help and maybe I need it also AAA


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#619
Andrew Charbonneau

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ooooooooo FORGOT IF ANYONE OUT THERE TOLD THERE ENGINE BUILDER TOOO BE UNDER THE TOLERANCE LOL :devil:


Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other

#620
Andrew Charbonneau

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PS WHAT HAPPENED TO SUNBELT AND RE MOTORS HUMMMMM WAKE UP


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Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America Survivalist - Won 25 Hours at Thunderhill! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other




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