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#41
Strongbad

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Brilliant!

 

It takes time to sort out a decade of cheating so thank the builders and teams who have created this mess for the tight timing.

 

Or would you rather it be a guess and take the flack from that if it's not right?    NASA would rather get it right like the've done before.  (Remember when you told me I ruined the class 4yrs ago?)

 

J

 

Dear SCCA & NASA,

Why did it take so long to catch this problem before it grew so big? Oh wait, lack of tech, maybe? What is your plan to tech the 'stock' heads ? Another train wreck coming down the line.

Really disappointed with the ruling.



#42
Johnny D

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J~


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#43
HoneyBadger - BrianW

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I'm done now. If you have specific questions please send them to my email... I'm done on this board for awhile.


I think this is a good idea. You have pretty much alienated the entire SM community with your recent attitude.
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#44
Tom Sager

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It takes time to sort out a decade of cheating so thank the builders and teams who have created this mess for the tight timing.

 

Or would you rather it be a guess and take the flack from that if it's not right?    NASA would rather get it right like the've done before.  (Remember when you told me I ruined the class 4yrs ago?)

 

J

John, I think that what a lot of us are trying to figure out right now is why the organizers response to some non-compliant cars is to penalize both performance-wise and financially those that are compliant?  That's what the proposed ruling does.  Add weight or change your head if you want to compete at standard weight.  

 

I would have wagered heavily that this second announcement after more review (by the people who are in the positions they are in) would not have resulted in what we're reading today.  That simply keeping the current rules in place would have been a more desirable decision than pushing people back to a stock head.  Seems like that serves a significant minority of the class and when I say class I mean entrants over the course of a year.  


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#45
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It takes time to sort out a decade of cheating so thank the builders and teams who have created this mess for the tight timing.

 

Or would you rather it be a guess and take the flack from that if it's not right?    NASA would rather get it right like the've done before.  (Remember when you told me I ruined the class 4yrs ago?)

 

J

Guess the big dogs shouldn't have pissed in the food bowl.  Folks forgot they are running MAZDAS........;) and Mazda was EMBARRASSED at THEIR track. 


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#46
pat slattery

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It takes time to sort out a decade of cheating so thank the builders and teams who have created this mess for the tight timing.

 

Or would you rather it be a guess and take the flack from that if it's not right?    NASA would rather get it right like the've done before.  (Remember when you told me I ruined the class 4yrs ago?)

 

J

So John, if there was a decade of cheating, how come it took so long to do anything about it ?


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#47
pat slattery

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If someone hadn't put up protest noney, would SCCA have passed all the heads?




 

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#48
Johnny D

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Bump from page 1.

 

Maybe asks question on another thread.

J~

 

TO: Spec Miata Participants   

FR: SCCA, NASA, Mazda Motorsports, and the Spec Miata Working Group   

RE: Class Intent, Direction and Regulations   

DT: November 14, 2014

 

 

In the spirit of open communication, we wanted to update you with where we are at in the process layed out in last week's memo to the SM community. Additionally, we have been asked to share more details regarding what the working group of industry experts uncovered in Topeka, Kansas, where the non-compliant cylinder heads are stored, during the investigation into the illegally modified cylinder heads protested at the 2014 SCCA Runoffs; below we shed a little more light. Thank you to all of those who have spent the time sharing their thoughts with us.

 

As a reminder:  

 

The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the membership with the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition.

 

The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class.

  

The working group that visited Topeka discovered that there was a variance in the amount of smoothing, blending and porting of the sharp edge from the plunge cut among the illegal heads; some were egregious - a clear violation of the rules in an attempt to gain a competitive advantage. Others were less severe, but still a violation of the rule. Some have suggested that we should adjust the rule in order to allow for a certain level of blending and porting. In keeping with the intent and integrity of the class, NASA and the SCCA, with council from Mazda, determined that would not be the best course for the class. It would increase costs for the competitors who have not violated the rules and for the future entrants of the class; this is in direct contradiction of the spirit of this class, which we desire to keep costs manageable and to have a fair and level playing field.   

A challenge we are presented with is that there are competitors who have plunge cuts that had engine builders who de-burred and smoothed the sharp edge in their belief of practicing "good clean-up." This is inevitably an issue that the plunge cut provides, along with additional costs to perform, and to measure or tech. As a result, returning to stock cylinder heads is ultimately the goal and in alignment with the intent of this class.  Many of those who have compliant cylinder heads, per the rule set, have asked a very fair question of why they may receive a weight adjustment. First, please know that if weight adjustments are given, this adjustment would not be punitive; the weight adjustments, if any, would be targeted to offset the advantage in horsepower of the plunge cut over a stock head - to equalize them. The benefits of the weight adjustment to the class would be as follows: 

  • It will allow all racers with currently compliant heads to continue to race those engines.

 

  • It will encourage anyone building a new engine to use a stock head, rather than spend money on performance increases that would be neutralized with additional weight.

 

  • It will also give racers who currently race with stock heads an equal chance against engines with legally performed plunge cut heads.

Recognizing the number of modified cylinder heads in the community (both compliant and non-compliant), the expense to replace these and the potential parts availability concern, the working group agreed to have an independent, third party test and determine the effect of the individual and collective modifications; this process is underway.  The testing group is currently gathering various cylinder heads and engines. The group will flow test heads first, then run all heads on the same engine, then do the same exercise again with another engine. The testing group will dyno various cylinder heads to determine what horsepower advantages the modifications have, ranging from those egregious to the compliant, compared to one another and to stock heads. These findings will be shared with SCCA, NASA, and Mazda and in turn be shared with the entire Spec Miata community.

 

Using these data, the weight adjustments, if any, will be determined and outlined during the December 14 SCCA Board of Directors meeting, in conjunction with NASA's determination. NASA, SCCA, and Mazda are working together to help make the right decision for the good of the class - one where members will have the opportunity to compete in low-cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition.

 

As always, we appreciate your support,   

 

Lisa Noble, SCCA President and CEO

John Doonan, Mazda Motorsports Director

John Mueller, NASA Spec Miata National Director

Robert Clarke, SCCA Pro Racing President/SCCA VP of Business Development

Tony Ave, SCCA Club Racing Board

Steve Sanders, MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Manager

Mike Allen, MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Specialist


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#49
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I guess its easier to cast disparaging comments on people and resort to name calling instead of acknowledging a opinion that is different.  Nice....

Now, this ^ is fricken funny comming out of you.  :rotfl:  As you and some of your Texas friends like to say to me, do you (me) ever read the stuff you  post.

 

I may not always agree with the stuff NASA posts, but I would call their info transparent more so than the minimal amout posted by the SCCA.


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#50
James York

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Now, this ^ is fricken funny comming out of you.  :rotfl:  As you and some of your Texas friends like to say to me, do you (me) ever read the stuff you  post.

 

I may not always agree with the stuff NASA posts, but I would call their info transparent more so than the minimal amout posted by the SCCA.

 

I made no comparison about NASA to the SCCA...... nor anything about transparency.


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#51
Jim Drago

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You like the parity now right?   Yes?   You're welcome.   NASA has history with this and we're very involved.

 

We don't have a parity issue and racing is great now as 90% or more of the cars racing are 99 up.  The changes we made before 2012 had many non NA drivers feeling optimistic. The intent of the changes was to bring all the weights and power closer, great idea. However, in the end, we changed very little when considering the NA cars racing for wins in big races. 

 

How many 1.6 cars came out with these rules that we didnt have before?

Do the vocal 1.6 drivers on this forum seem anymore satisfied with the rules than they were in 2011?

Most thought the NA1.8 car was supposed be the overdog. How many of those are racing now?

 

Definitely all the changes were made with the best intentions by both Sanctioning bodies, definitely good ideas especially on bringing weights and power together, but if we are guaging our sucess on particpation of NA cars at the front and racing for wins, then the adjustments didn't did not work. So we need to be careful patting ourselves on the back here. 


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#52
FTodaro

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John Mueller wanted to to remind folks that if you want to discuss this further with him that you can contact him at  JohnMueller@DriveNASA.com. He is taking some time off.

 

Let me just take a moment and remind everyone that everyone just about on the boards and involved  in this process is for the most part a volunteer and giving their time and energy to do what they think in their opinion is in the best interest of the class. Sure there is self interest involved. Look in the mirror and tell me that is not human nature.

 

My point is if you cannot discuss your opinion share your ideas with out low blows and name calling take it some place else. You only exposing your self for what you are.

 

David L who ever you are, can you dial it back? if you want anyone's respect.

 

 

 

The totality of this entire process has been for people to express their point of view, get it all out in the open and to digest it for what it is, in an effort to ultimately guide this class to the right place, if you can't do that then don't.


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#53
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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^ I agree 100% with you Frank.

How can anyone get mad at someone that is doing it for free ?

I just want to thank John for all the time and effort he is putting in no matter what the outcome is.

Thanks to you as well Frank.

Remember people all they are trying to do is make it fair for everyone !
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Kuch
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#54
Jim Drago

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^ I agree 100% with you Frank.

How can anyone get mad at someone that is doing it for free ?
 

 Where have you been Kuch? Haven't you been reading these forums the last 5-10 years :)


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#55
B(Kuch)Kucera45

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I only read at night so my wife doesn't catch me,it's kind of like p@&n ! Lol :)
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#56
ChrisA

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Kind-of wondering, should they be adding weight to the cars that are now determined to have non-compliant heads or reducing the weight of those with compliant OE heads? When the current weight & RP were selected for parity, what level of engine prep were they basing the decision upon?


Chris

 

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#57
Ron Alan

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Problem is, no one involved other than John has a face we can publicly draw a mustache on! Not fair for anyone here to lay all their issues on him...he is a participant in the process and has been nice enough to share a little in between Mazdaspeed and SCCA email blasts. He did nothing but LISTEN to all sides last weekend at the Sonoma despite what you may think JY. When ones opinion includes bending over in it...not always worthy of a thought out response.

 

Thanks Frank for trying to keep it civil here...and David L, your anger and the direction your arrows are pointed is noted. Enough said.


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#58
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^ I agree 100% with you Frank.
How can anyone get mad at someone that is doing it for free ?
I just want to thank John for all the time and effort he is putting in no matter what the outcome is.
Thanks to you as well Frank.
Remember people all they are trying to do is make it fair for everyone !


Butch I don't agree. Just because some volunteers doesn't give them the right to be an ass. Also in Mr. Meuller a case he represents a for profit business. If he represented my business I would have asked him to be quiet and let corporate do the talking.

I volunteer coaching sports year round and I certainly don't feel I have the right to be belligerent to the kids and parents i work with. If they have a complaint, I try to address it Ina professional not personal manner. If I fuckup, they have every right to be angry with me.

I prefer the praise but being human I do make mistakes.
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#59
Johnny D

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I'm honestly just looking for the end result.

 

He (John) may not be PC, thrown into a situation FUBAR, maybe not that technical, but with thick skin and big balls, cares enough to get the job done right.

He's ok in my book. :thumbsup:

J~


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#60
john mueller

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Thanks on both sides... those supporting and those that aren't. The STR issue is tiny but cast a huge shadow due to the timing and the fish it caught. There really is no good solution to it. Should we just allow a little smoothing? But how long does it take before it's a full on ported head? I've already seen one that was headed that way on the bench in Topeka so my guess they'd be here right quick. NASA NEVER wanted OEM heads, I told Mazda it would kill the class... But after seeing the heads and talking with some folks that forgot more than I'll ever know "the group" made a tough call and I supported it (based on the info provided).

Then the backlash came, which IMO was great. So "we" listened and removed the sunset date on legally plunge cut heads and clarified that any weight levied would NOT be punitive. Then the tinfoil hats came out.... so now I'm disenfranchised, but not with the process or the leadership but with the folks I'm trying to help - and yes on my own time.

I ask for patience. If you can't grant me that then I can't help you. But if you want to send me an email asking specific questions I'll do my best to answer them with the information I have and I'll even provide my hopes and desires for the outcome.

It's complicated. Gotta find a solve for the heads then turn to address the other areas folks have been living in the grey on and deal with those too. All the while building a mechanism to maintain compliance AND deal with parity of this now dynamic situation. Like I said, complicated and at this moment with SMAC not relevant it falls on "the SM group".

Folks say it's not broken... But we all know that's not true. Rampant cheating and soaring costs (go to the classified section of this site and see the price of the 99 ' s for sale). I may be delusional thinking that I can help evoke the changes to allow the class to continue as it has for a bunch more years, but I'm gonna try. Just give the process the time it needs to get it right. Please.

(I typed on my phone so I'm sure the gramer and spelling is a mess. Apologies. )
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