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#101
Cnj

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Dave Gran’s well written and all-encompassing article deals with all aspects of where we find ourselves today in Spec Miata.
 
I reiterate my position on the upcoming rule changes

  • Plunge Cut heads have been legal for some time. This is NOT cheating. DO not change this rule and DO NOT punish drivers who are compliant. I suspect that most heads fall into this category.
  • Ported, massaged, deburred heads are ILLEGAL as per the current regulations. This part of the spec could POSSIBLY allow VERY minor changes to allow only the minimal amount of deburring. This will prevent many heads being tossed without them gaining a significant performance advantage. At the time of the next refresh the deburring could be done by drivers who do not have it yet. It just needs an acceptable spec.
  • All ported, massaged or performance enhanced heads need to be tossed.
  • None of this should require any weight changes.
  • The 99 vs. VVT parity is close as the rules are written
  • I think some concessions can be made to 1.6 and 1.8 NA’s to make them more competitive

I'm pretty good with this. I really only deviate in that I think that many/most existing plunge cut heads would be found illegal if subjected to the Runoffs level of inspection. Some of these will be egregious and so tough, probably many will be very minor. So far the press release is slightly ambiguous on how minor infractions (Emory paper scratch marks on the edge, etc) will be treated - although Wheel has intimated that only a strict interpretation of the rule is being considered. If so engine builders are going to be busy the next few months.
I'm pleased the Working Group has listened to the racers concern about being (effectively) forced to change out heads built to a previous rule. However the plan still appears intended to push the class towards stock heads with all the problems identified in the article. I have to trust that the Working Group (who clearly must know of these concerns) will be thinking of a way through - or we are in trouble.
Certainly there are some very highly qualified people in the group.

CNJ
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#102
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Start shopping around to see how much it cost to cast your own head. That's what it's going to come to.
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#103
Steve Scheifler

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I can tell you that the dyno to be used is not a chassis dyno. It is a top of the top of the line engine dyno and the people that will be operating it are top of the top professionals. They are not volunteers like the rest of us. I have complete confidence that the results will be thorough and honest. I can also tell you that, from my observation as a consultant with the Group, what you are looking at will be the rule for 2015 (weights and/or plates TBD).
wheel


Thanks for the insights. Do you know whether there are 1.6 engines being tested?

Do you know whether overall parity between models (irrespective of punge cuts etc.) are part of what they hope to improve? If yes, do they know enough about tweaking the 1.6 AFM, filter adapters, and inherent intake air temp issues with that car which are not simulated on an engine dyno?
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#104
Ron Alan

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I dont know who Dave Gran is or the website the article was posted on...but it is missing very little in laying out the story pretty accurately.  :clap:

 

Way back when the COA announced its decision that Sunday night and then Jim posted the appeal as it was written(post #325), I responded with a couple posts that did not sit well with many. Remember this record setting thread?

 

 http://mazdaracers.c...g-runoffs-2014/

 

My posts were #334 and #393. Locals and some good friends couldnt believe that i was siding with the protesters(Those Oregon guys??)...yes there is a little local rivalry and dislike here! I had to explain over and over again it was not the people but the action to expose what the class should not accept. The protesters not only put a lot of personal money at stake but there reputations within the community.  

 

Fast forward a month and the rumors of stock heads started to swirl. I texted a couple of my northern friends and screamed "now look what you have done!"  Of course this was done in fun...but we all agreed this seemed to be a huge over-reach. From the beginning we had been saying the rules are fine...add a clarification or 2 for those who wanted to read more into than what was there. Toss the heads with anything more than a scotchbrite deburr. 

 

Though i agree with a portion of the "Petition"...it losses me when ,250 below the ferrous metal is used. The picture used is not representative of a 99/01 head and is somewhat misleading(closer to a 1.6 head). Below the ferrous metal on the STR only about 2mm of the casting is touched(99/01 head) with the plunge cut...at that point the port turns away. In reality it(plunge cut) hardly leaves any form of sharp edge. 6mm(~.250) puts you in area reserved for a porters tools...no matter how small. This portion of the casting has no reason to be touched!! But I would accept a small area here in compromise over a stock head mandate...

 

So know it would seem I'm finding myself with many allies...including Dave in the article. His conclusions represent a large portion of the community...maybe even a majority? 

 

Food for thought...rather than add weight for a legal plunge cut in any year car...how about a west coast and east coast certified "Stock Head sealer". Anyone starting a new build or replacing a blown motor has the option of sending there head off to have it veryfied as stock, valve job, and decked to a specific #. It is marked and sealed in a way nothing can be tampered with and certified. The car then(regardless of year) can then run with 35lbs less(just picking a random # here). Bottom end falls into the rules as they are. A CC# will be given for each chamber so compression can be calculated with piston height.Of course if it is a stock block over compression wont be an issue.


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#105
Rob Burgoon

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How do you seal a head?


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#106
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Question to anyone who has dynoed a OEM stock head with OEM plunge cut versus same head with aftermarket plunge cut per the allowed rule, no secondary material removal after aftermarket plunge cut. Is there a real hp difference per description above or is the difference noise within the dyno process?

By the way, if any of you have looked at an OEM plunge cut head, there is no secondary material removal process after the OEM plunge cut other than high pressure water wash. Aluminum alloy is used to minimize burrs and hanging machining stuff and a high pressure water wash is used to eliminate hanging/loose stuff.

Retired IT Jake G., it's been a long time enjoyed you post.

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#107
Bench Racer

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I dont know who Dave Gran is or the website the article was posted on...but it is missing very little in laying out the story pretty accurately.  :clap:


Dave Grand is a long time Imptoved Touring site dude who wrote his original book, Go Ahead Take The Wheel, google the book. Apparently the book has grown into biger things for Dave. IIRC Dave now races a Spec Miata.

 


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#108
mtm68

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It's an ITA miata, but, still a Miata. And Dave (and Jake) are both good guys, who are more into transparency than being part of the crowd.
(Sorry for the lack of posts on this site, but google the user name and you'll find a long history on sm.com, as well as other sites. I quit posting after we won the 08 25 hours and I retired.... Now I run in Super unlimited in NASA nw, with a prod body (soon to be) turbo miata. Ironically - it's because of rules and cheating. I prefer to have fun. You guys have your man drama.)
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#109
Ron Alan

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How do you seal a head?

4 Q-tips and a big di...? :)

 

No idea...trying to think outside the box if stock heads are a disadvantage...rather than those of us with legal plunge cut heads and established having to do something, give those with maybe a perceived or real disadvantage a bonus. Less weight or bigger restricter(ok, this doesnt help the 1,6 or the BIG BOYS out there!)?


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#110
bmw251

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Why has no one mentioned dropping weight for the stock head....... Reward the action... Maybe better response..

I don't get the additional weight thing..... If you allow the plung cut then you need to define it so it can be verified .......
But then I thought the argument was that the need for stockheads was due to the fact the cut was difficult to enforce with the blend SOME have..

Most new guys I know who have gotten into SM over the last 4 yrs either buy an existing car or have a car built by some sort of SM professional. The days of guys buying a street car and finding an auto power bolt in cage have been over a loooong time ago . The home built thing is not what makes SM great for entry level is knowing you can purchase everything and run upfront if you have the skill. That' can be done by multiple car builders and multiple engine builders.....

I know guys who pay professional drivers for coaching over the weekend monitoring there driving using data..... This was not present when SM started at regional weekends. This difference has nothing to do with motors!

SM has produced many pro drivers and still does today. I personally think that most of the Major Races provide some of the highest level of driving in road racing today.... Not just club racing.

Now it seems to me that the original intent of the plung cut was to help create equal parts.... The problem seems to be with the product itself having to many variances. The motors were made for road cars and not originaly thought of in spec racing.... If so, I'm sure Mazda would have had tighter tolerances and this would have never been an issue in the first place. I think if we go to stockheads it will only magnify the bad mazda parts.
BTW
The comment made by Jake calling the 8 runoffs guys cheaters is not a fair statement. The SCCA and NASA have crowned people with these parts in the past even with tear downs . It is their rules....their enforcement (or lack of) that is the problem. Those drivers wanted to win and they bought the best parts they could get .... Do you believe they asked for illegal parts? Come on.... I doubt they did.

Greg
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#111
ChrisA

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Why has no one mentioned dropping weight for the stock head....... Reward the action... Maybe better response..


Greg

 

I raised that question pages ago.


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#112
Ron Alan

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Why has no one mentioned dropping weight for the stock head....... Reward the action... Maybe better response..

I

6 posts above you...and I didn't catch Chris's either


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#113
lateapex911

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"The engine builders of the non-complaint engines are East Street Racing owned by Jim Drago, (Also driver of the #2 car, and a CRB member)  TiSpeed owned by Dan Tiley (SMAC member as well) and Rush Motorsports owned by Louis Thibault, another SMAC member."

 

Still trying to wrap my head around this paragraph in Daves article. I dont even know exactly what the SMAC does and if they are elected officials or appointed. Do they get to keep their position on the committee after all this?  

The ad hocs, -the various advisory boards- such as the ITAC, the PAC, and the SMAC, have grown in their role since their inception in, I think, the late '90s era. keeping the rules and goings on straight in all the various categories in SCCA is too much to ask a volunteer staff of about 7 (the CRB) to do, so, over time, the ad hocs have been formed to do the day to day management of the categories. I was on the ITAC for 7 or so years. In that period, we created a 'Process' that classes cars that members ask to race. IT uses weight to equalize over 300 different models of cars in  5 different classes. We wrote rules as needed to adapt to changing technology. (the ECU rule was mine, for example) and we modify weights of legacy cars when the need arises. Mostly, we spent 4 years creating the proceedures on how to do all of the above consistently over the years and through personal changes on the committee, so all cars would be treated the same, no matter which ITAC classed them.

 

The PRod Advisory committe does a similar task, although their process for setting weights is different.

And the SMAC is similar, but it manages the 4 different generations, and, over the years has fine tuned the weighting/restrictors and methods used to arrive at those results.

 

All committes meet by con call once a month, and there is a liason from the CRB on the call. I bet Jim Wheeler, the current CRB chair (Nice guy too, it seems, I met him in Lagina) sits in on many con calls as well. His predesessor, Bob Dowie was on nearly every call during my tenure on the ITAC.  The CRB will bring up issues for the SMAC to work on, provide background when needed and suggest how far the committee can go. (Our "PRocess" was a BIG deal to sell, for example)

 

Members of the committees prepare for the meetings by taking part in online discussion boards. The SCCA letter system submits member letters to the boards, and they are discussed through the month online. One of my constant suggestions for the members of the ITAC was online board participation, as being up to speed on the letters greatly streamlined the con calls. Some of the guys were rather un savvy when it came to cumputers.

 

Once the Committee comes to an agreement, the recommendation is sent to the CRB. The liason presents it to the CRB who then votes to approve or deny the action. Then, the BoD approves or denies the CRBs recommendation, and those meetings are held a few times per year.

 

In my tenure, I was dismayed at some self serving moves by some committee members. The sytem is good, but I really really wanted the minutes of our con calls to be open to the members. Other committee guys thought I was crazy.  Trouble can arise when members work back channels and the liason is too familiar with the class and has personal ties with comittee members. A liason can unwittingly present the action to the CRB in a bad light, and it can be shot down. Or, the liason can purposely color the action, and the CRB can act incorrectly. I have always felt that having a more distant liason, (Say a Touring guy for IT, and  a Prod guy for SM) is better, as they can see things from a wider frame of reference, have no dog in the hunt, and their presentation to the CRB is less likely to be biased.

 

In short, the makeup of the Ad hoc is extremely important. My ITAC was a very public one, and we were very open with the members. At nearly every race I attended, from NH to GA, I'd have many discussions with members airing their beliefs to me.  I felt that the mebership was the ultimate boss, and their thoughts were an important consideration, so I encouraged them to avail me with their opinions whenever they wanted to.

 

Originally I was called by the then ITAC chair who had seen my writings and wanted me to join, but many committee members are chosen from resumes that were submitted. Timing helps as does a good working knowledge of the class and the ability to think critically and fairly, and have a 1000' view.  I felt that it would be a bad idea to have anyone with a business interest in the class, as it's an obvious conflict of interest, and SCCA has been burned many times by such arrangements.

 

Hope that helps you understand the system.

 

I have no idea what will happen to the members of the SMAC after this. I know that when I was on the ITAC, neither Andy or I (Andy was the ITAC chair, I was the second in command, so to speak) would have allowed any member to stay in a similar case unless there was a real good explanation. How could I expect the membership to trust us if we were cheaters? It never happened in my tenure, so I have no idea what the CRBs stance is on the matter. Heck, I don't know what the CRB CAN do, but as they approve of the Ad hoc chairs nominations, I assume the can bounce you too. If it were me, I know I sure wouldn't want to be on the next con  call if I was busted, and the CRB would never have to deal with the "what to do with this guy" question...I'd resign.


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Jake Gulick.

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#114
wheel

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Jake, 

Great post.  By the way, the CRB is accepting resumes for the SMAC, as well as for all other Advisory Committees.

wheel



#115
Alex Piku

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I am concerened with the most recent notice feom scca/mazda/nasa, when they say that the weight penalty for 2014 compliant heads will not be punitive. I'm sorry, but i have very little confidence in the sanctioning bodies determining parity with the current amount of variants, let alone adding stock vs. plunge cut vs. str, etc. If the weight penalty isnt punitive, could this lead to the most competitive drivers swapping heads/weight between races depending on the track? I hope everyone would agree
that would be bad. If stock heads are the final decision (I do not agree, btw), then the sactioning bodies need to make a firm decision, and make the weight penalty punitive. The "wishy-washy-ness" indicated in the latest memo will not help in the long run. Regardless of the decision, it needs to be firm, so we have a clear direction moving forward.
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#116
Sean - MiataCage

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In my tenure, I was dismayed at some self serving moves by some committee members. The sytem is good, but I really really wanted the minutes of our con calls to be open to the members. Other committee guys thought I was crazy.  Trouble can arise when members work back channels and the liason is too familiar with the class and has personal ties with comittee members. A liason can unwittingly present the action to the CRB in a bad light, and it can be shot down. Or, the liason can purposely color the action, and the CRB can act incorrectly. I have always felt that having a more distant liason, (Say a Touring guy for IT, and  a Prod guy for SM) is better, as they can see things from a wider frame of reference, have no dog in the hunt, and their presentation to the CRB is less likely to be biased.

 

This is a tough one.... It's almost a be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.

 

1.) We need SM specific knowledgable people on the SMAC.  Without them you have 70 year old Production guys making the calls on a class they know nothing about.  Most everyone who doesn't race in SM think we are a bunch of idiot crash fest drivers which we all know is not accurate.  I believe that if the call minutes were open to anyone and everyone then it would negate the potential for shenanigans yet keep knowledgable people about our specific class in place.  It's going to be hard to find SM people who don't have ties to an engine builder, parts supplier, arrive and drive program, driver coach etc.  I think it's important to have knowledgable SM specific people on the SMAC but we have to make it transparent (see # 2) for all to see.  There also needs to be an action plan to remove someone if they start pushing their own for profit agenda.

 

2.) Why can't we fix the minutes thing.  If the SMAC is for SM related issues only, then why can't we as a group mandate that it be opened up to all involved.  I don't see why Mazda wouldn't support this as well.  From my limited conversations with them it seems like they are cool with transparency and fixing the class moving forward.  Is there any reason to hide these minutes from all of us?

 

3.) Better yet, why don't we use the phone technology in place and offer up listen only access to the calls as they occur.  There should be NOTHING discussed during one of these calls that we all should not have the ability to know about and through the proper channels communicate about.  Open it up and make it available to all and that will eliminate the back channel proposals and other shenanigans listed above.

 

I feel like some people are trying to make huge changes when maybe huge changes are not what is needed.  Maybe some fine tuning might get the situation where it needs to be.

 

Just my 2 cents.... Sean


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#117
lateapex911

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Sean, after a decade of reading these boards (Daniels place before this)  ...I'm struck as to the number of passionate and knowlegable SM racers. Of ALL the categories, you guys should have the easiest time finding SMAC candidates. And SOME ties are ok. Driver coaching? I've done it, and it had no bearing on my ITAc work.

 

You need:

-Dedication- the ability and desire to put in say 5 hrs a week on the boards keeping up.

-Morals- You vote for whats right for the membership.  Money should never enter your head (in terms of who profits) Right is right, wrong is wrong.

-Big picture view-  Sometimes the right move is the wrong move for this season, but it's the right move for the category going forward thruogh the years

-Open mindedness-  Gotta be able to accept alternative views and think out of the box, assuming others might have legitimate ideas.

-Experience- Having been around SCCA, and the class will speed your thought process.

 

I personally think that super specific knowledge about things like plunge cuts etc aren't vital. The committee can call on outside sources to be expert witnesses. We did that regularly on the ITAC. (300 cars to class!). Many committee members were loath to do it, because they felt inferior. They need to man up and get over that. The SMAC is in an semi enviable position where the class can be argued to be the most important to the club. So the SMAC can request resources from the CRB that other ad hocs would have trouble attaining. 

 

The CRB can be very helpful. Lot's of experience there, and lots of contacts.

 

But- the chair of the committtee(s) is in a tough position. I;ve seen that they rule with too soft a hand. Ad Hoc guys missing 40% of the con calls? Sorry, that's BS, they have to go. It's tough and a hassle to find new guys, so often crap like that festers. And then there are the guys who really help, do lots of work, and do lots of good, BUT, they have some shady methods and go over the line sometimes. Those guys mUST get their chops busted, warned heavily and tossed on the second offense, (or on the first if it's egregious) because the club members can not have leaders who are shady. The members can not be exected to be 100% legal when the leaders of their category are loosey goosey with the rules. (All IMO, of course!)


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#118
lateapex911

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Jake, 

Great post.  By the way, the CRB is accepting resumes for the SMAC, as well as for all other Advisory Committees.

wheel

 Jim, thanks. It's been a couple years since I was on the ITAC, but I think thats how it still works, for the most part.

 

And good news on the resumes, if I read between your lines.


Jake Gulick.

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#119
Bruce Wilson

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I am concerened with the most recent notice feom scca/mazda/nasa, when they say that the weight penalty for 2014 compliant heads will not be punitive. I'm sorry, but i have very little confidence in the sanctioning bodies determining parity with the current amount of variants, let alone adding stock vs. plunge cut vs. str, etc. If the weight penalty isnt punitive, could this lead to the most competitive drivers swapping heads/weight between races depending on the track? I hope everyone would agree
that would be bad. If stock heads are the final decision (I do not agree, btw), then the sactioning bodies need to make a firm decision, and make the weight penalty punitive. The "wishy-washy-ness" indicated in the latest memo will not help in the long run. Regardless of the decision, it needs to be firm, so we have a clear direction moving forward.

 

Yeah, a big can of worms for sure.  The worst violator had a 1" blend (Wholly crap, this was taken to the runoffs???)  So the weight penalty needs to be calculated on the 1" blend, yes?  Okay then you have all the other guys with a .25" blend and a big penalty, so they are going to take their head off and start chopping.  Fast forward a couple weeks, and then you'll have development being done on the 1" blend.  Hmm does this need to be convex or concave and what is the best angle of the "blend"  Got to say this is still a cluster and growing!


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#120
chris haldeman

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Bruce there is enough Mis info on here. I would really like too see or hear any proof of a 1" blend and or really any actual facts or info.
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