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#21
Johnny D

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Pragmatism?

 

I guess you have to ask yourself are you true to yourself.

 

If you were new to the class or playing a video game how would you answer the questions...

 

Do you want 1.6 or 1.8

Do you want AFM or ECU

25 year old suspension design or newer

 

And if you jump in a 99 and your laptimes don't change for the better or somebody jumps in your car and knocks a second or 2 off your best time.

You don't really have anything to complain about because you'd still be running where you're at, IMO.

J~


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#22
Jim Drago

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So you need a certain number before running Runoffs right ?

Would be funny for you guys, not us, if the following happened.

 

Once upon a time

SM 1.6 is started.

The current Sm class is diluted maybe even cut in half.

The 1.6 class doesn't look that bad anymore and even looks like fun.

More 1.6's come out that had been parked, group get bigger than the NB's.

NB guys start coming over because the racing is bigger/better.

1.6's goes to the Runoffs and the NB stay at home.

 

Just saying.

J~

 

If this became a reality...

The majors and Runoffs would be all but not effected in terms of entries or finishing positions. 

There would be NO WAY EVER that a 1.6 only class would get invited to the Runoffs, it would be a regional class forever, NASA perhaps.

 

Whether we feel the 1.6 needs no help, a little help or a lot of help doesn't matter. The sad reality is until the 1.6 car is given enough help that it is at a clear advantage, it will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage to the guys complaining now.  If at an advantage many  front runners including including myself will build them. If at a point where it is at an advantage at some track, not so much at another, most front runners will still not build them. So our best shot is to get them there, but most complaining will still not win and still feel they need help even if proved by 1 million dollars in testing by outside NASA/Nascar and F1 test teams. :) Flipping the class over time and time again is not best for the class. The 1.6 should fade away IMO. We should stop adjusting for it and let the class move forward. The next deal will be the 06 Plus cars and all the 99-05 guys will slowly transition to the NC car.. Then the 2016. ( doesn't have to happen soon, but eventually this has to happen or we or our kids will all be in bug eyes at some point) Slowing the majority of the class to include the minority, which happens to be the oldest car time and time again is a not a good plan.  I am testing smaller plates today on the 99-05 cars for my own benefit.. If we go here, the pendulum will swing. The question is if this is the course we should take. I don't have an answer, just an opinion.  My opinion is no, we should not.

 

You can shoot holes in this, call me biased, a 1.6 hater etc. But that is the reality we face. You all know it, getting you to admit it is another story :) The only parity solution, that will not piss people off with the end on track results is to allow 94/05 engine in the 90-93 car, which I probably would never allow if I were on the CRB as it comes with lots of headaches. I have done this, I have bad news for you guys... The 99 engine in the 1.6 car with the conversion kit and 1.6 wires and electronics DOES NOT RUN like a 99 SM. We installed a sub par 99 race engine in 124 with plate into a 90 miata this way.. slightly more restrictive exhaust and we struggled to get 126 with no plate.  Not much of a data set, but what we experienced.  So it would have to be at bigger plate to work IMO. I would have no issue allowing it this way.  Megasuirt would be a bad option and way outside class philosophy and would never pass through CRB/BOD..

 

Just the opinions of a SM racer ;)


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#23
LarryKing

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A pretty bright guy suggested that cooler intake air would solve the 1.6 power loss during a race. Seems like a cheap upgrade.

 

Would the NB crowd be OK with letting the 1.6 have a cold air induction system.

 

If not - why not?

 

Why is a Megasquirt outside the class philosophy? Does the class even have a philosophy anymore? Again, seems like a much cheaper solution than a 1.8 motor/harness/ecu. (Is putting a 1999 motor into a 1991 chassis within the class philosphy?)

 

And now for something completely different: Would someone please remind me why the adjustable timing wheel and FPR were allowed for the NB? What was the problem that needed fixed?


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#24
davew

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I agree with almost everything Jim just wrote. I do not feel any conversation should include the NC car, nor the ND car. Th NC is just too different and the ND car is still too far away.

 

I agree, the 99+ engine, installed with the 1.6 ecu does not work as well as you think. Why, I will not speculate. But having done this swap myself, you would be disappointed. Swapping the entire electronics system would get the performance you desire. But at the price of just doing a NB car.

 

My idea has been the same since back when I was on the SMAC. Allow 1.6 cars to upgrade to the NA 1.8 engine. You can do it either by running the 1.6 ECU or by completely installing the 1.8 engine management. At that point the car becomes a NA1.8 and has to run the big brakes and appropriate weight. Then adjust the restrictor plate on the NA1.8 to make it competitive with the NB cars. I would then create a Regional only class for the 1.6 cars called Club Spec Miata (CSM). Base it on the same premise as the Club Formula Ford class. The CSM cars would still be eligable for SM, but their competitiveness would not be factored into any parity discussion/adjustments.

 

just the opinion of a different SM racer

 

dave


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#25
Johnny D

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I just posted that to get people thinking ^^^

 

Are the 1.6'ers like the baby boomers ?? a fairly large group.

 

And if we pass a rule as suggested above, fade away ish, would that help or hurt the class ??

 

Are the 1.6ers a die hard breed and most would stay with their car and cut the numbers of the SM class ??

 

Or upgrade to run with the class ?? Some, most, all ??

 

J~


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#26
LarryKing

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I have no idea what others would do.

 

What would I do? I race my 1.6 because it's the only car I have and can't afford anything else. Let's say I suddenly acquired $30,000 of disposable income. A new Spec Miata wouldn't even be a consideration. I'd either buy a SRF or a '06+ SM5/T4 MX5

 

 

25 year old suspension design or newer

 

What year do you reckon the 1999 Miata suspension was designed?


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#27
Johnny D

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So if you could sell your car for 8k or so, whatever...

 

What price would/could you offer for this car ? 12k? not at all?

http://mazdaracers.c...quisition-nice/

 

J~


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#28
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If this became a reality...

The majors and Runoffs would be all but not effected in terms of entries or finishing positions. 

There would be NO WAY EVER that a 1.6 only class would get invited to the Runoffs, it would be a regional class forever, NASA perhaps.

 

Just the opinions of a SM racer ;)

Or if one desired to be a bit more customer friendly, one could have said, there is an edict to the CRB, no more new classes for three year and further said there is to be a 6 month study to determine a 14-16 class Majors (national) club racing structure to be
fully achieved by 2025.   

 

2 cents from another SM racer  :bigsquaregrin:
 


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#29
Jim Drago

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My idea has been the same since back when I was on the SMAC. Allow 1.6 cars to upgrade to the NA 1.8 engine. You can do it either by running the 1.6 ECU or by completely installing the 1.8 engine management. At that point the car becomes a NA1.8 and has to run the big brakes and appropriate weight. Then adjust the restrictor plate on the NA1.8 to make it competitive with the NB cars. I would then create a Regional only class for the 1.6 cars called Club Spec Miata (CSM). Base it on the same premise as the Club Formula Ford class. The CSM cars would still be eligable for SM, but their competitiveness would not be factored into any parity discussion/adjustments.

 

just the opinion of a different SM racer

 

dave

You can do this now.. But I don't know of any complaining that have done it?  Buy a NA 1.8 donor now, put it to those specs and run a NA 1.8 dash with vin plate, case closed

Disclaimer ( I would not do that right now as I think the NA 1.8 needs more help than a good 1.6, but with the larger (47mm) plate, I certainly would.

 

I have no issue with the intake Btw, but will not solve the problem, whether it be real or perceived. We are not looking for parity, we are looking for 'equality"  Further plate changes (smaller) on NB cars will slow them on the medium to long straights where they are already slower.  

There is NOTHING you can do to a 1.6 miata that will bring the HP and TQ curves in line with a NB miata. Cold and hard truth. We can get better, but never the same or even close to the same


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#30
Jim Drago

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Or if one desired to be a bit more customer friendly, one could have said, there is an edict to the CRB, no more new classes for three year and further said there is to be a 6 month study to determine a 14-16 class Majors (national) club racing structure to be
fully achieved by 2025.   

 

2 cents from another SM racer  :bigsquaregrin:
 

I don't need to be customer friendly anymore :)  Just pointing out that it will not happen, not unfriendly at all.  It was not meant as anything but putting out a fact to be considered under the premise of the thread. 


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#31
Jim Drago

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So if you could sell your car for 8k or so, whatever...

 

What price would/could you offer for this car ? 12k? not at all?

http://mazdaracers.c...quisition-nice/

 

J~

I would certainly pay the $1.00 it is listed at :)


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#32
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Jim, will you or may I move your post #22 from this thread to the For all who own, race and support the 1.6 Spec Miata thread? There is some info that could be fun to debate/comment on :scratchchin: , but don't want to tangent this thread. :bigsquaregrin:


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#33
Jim Drago

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Jim, will you or may I move your post #22 from this thread to the For all who own, race and support the 1.6 Spec Miata thread? There is some info that could be fun to debate/comment on :scratchchin: , but don't want to tangent this thread. :bigsquaregrin:

You can.. I can't as I am not invited in that thread :) However I do own a 1.6 (about 30 of them or so) and one SM. So come to think of it I am invited :) But not to the "intent" of that thread, so post whatever you like of mine. You guys can even tear it apart and have fun with it, I don't care


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#34
Ron Alan

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Let's just let that one reverberate a little while I point out that 1999 was 16 years ago. Whether it's two years from now or ten years, eventually the NB owners will be in the same boat when the NC cars (already ten years old) take over.
 
Will you have the same pragmatism?


Yep...and I have a drawer full of old phones and a closet of computers! Thank god cars last a little longer :)

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#35
LarryKing

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OK, so MazdaRacers has officially written off the NA.

 

Here's why I think the SCCA should still care: I still see a large percentage of NA cars entered in divisional events. The entries from those events support the regions and make it possible to continue to host them. The number of events in my region have dramatically decreased over the past several years. The main reason why is a lack of attendance.

 

Suppose all the remaining NA entries go away. That will make it even harder for regions to cover expenses.

 

NA drivers have to believe that they at least have a chance of being competitive.


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#36
ner88

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I would venture to guess that the vast majority of 1.6 racers are regional level players......

If you were going to be a Majors competitor (and can afford the extra expenses) than you would certainly be able to move to a NB car.

So, as I've said before there is no rule that prohibits a new 1.6 class on a regional level.

Why continue to beat this dead horse???



#37
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OK, so MazdaRacers has officially written off the NA.
 
Here's why I think the SCCA should still care:

 

I still see a large percentage of NA cars entered in divisional events.

 

The entries from those events support the regions and make it possible to continue to host them.

 

The number of events in my region have dramatically decreased over the past several years. The main reason why is a lack of attendance.
 
Suppose all the remaining NA entries go away. That will make it even harder for regions to cover expenses.
 
NA drivers have to believe that they at least have a chance of being competitive.

 

Someone sees the big picture ^.
 

This same someone ^ also makes a great point, NA drivers have to believe, they also should be able to review technical data and the data should shore up their belief.

 

To all that have their continious go race reagionals mentatallity, you don't do this and you don't do that, there are plenty of 99's at regional events. Hey, Voytek shows up at non Majors races for testing. He's one hell of a measuring stick for the poor old 1.6 regional guys (and for any Majors guys) that don't do anything. How many of you with all the 1.6 answers can whip his a$$?

Once up on a time there was a Midwest Division that had a $hit load of Spec Miatas, today, not so much. Where are the Spec Miatas and why are they there? I would need to back search, has the Midwest divison canceled events since the Majors program came to town for lack of cars.
 

A few short years ago (2007), Regional entries accounted for 75% of all SCCA entries. Walter, can you track 2014 with Majors races seperate and give a percentage for other races?

 

Many of you know the term, torque gets you there and horsepower keeps you there. IMHJ, the ball was dropped when the 99 plus cars wre classed. Have you guys that keep pi$$ing on the 1.6 ever figure out that if the 1.6 had more torque down low, it could race more heads up with the 99 plus. Please don't start with your penality for the 1.6 BS, think in in terms that if the 1.6 became an over, the 99 plus could loose some RP. 

 

David Dewhurst

 

EDIT:

A bit or two from Jim Drago's post within this thread.

 

The sad reality is until the 1.6 car is given enough help that it is at a clear advantage, it will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage to the guys complaining. Being negative is so much more fun than being positive.  Would most folks say the 99 plus has a clear advantage over thje NA car.

 

So our best shot is to get them there, but most complaining will still not win. It's not all about winning.

 

The 1.6 should fade away IMO.  IMHJ, never going to happen.

 

How many on the SMAC/CRB have this ^ mind set.

 

 


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#38
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....... Hey, Voytek shows up at non Majors races for testing. He's one hell of a measuring stick for the poor old 1.6 regional guys (and for any Majors guys) that don't do anything. How many of you with all the 1.6 answers can whip his a$$?

 

 

How many could beat his ass in any model year?  Is that what it takes to make 1.6 drivers believe they are competitive, have some regional 1.6 guy beat Voytek in his 99?

 

Which illustrates exactly the point you sort of quoted from Jim.  When Voytek shows up and spanks all the 1.6 drivers, its not the car.  But its an easy to use scapegoat.....


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#39
James York

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....

 

NA drivers have to believe that they at least have a chance of being competitive.

 

Ok, so you have a goal in your mind of success.  What measurement do you suggest to use that will prove this belief?


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#40
Brian129

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So if you could sell your car for 8k or so, whatever...
 
What price would/could you offer for this car ? 12k? not at all?
http://mazdaracers.c...quisition-nice/
 
J~


Ok, so sell my car for $8k, as now the world agrees the 1.6 is over

But where does the $8k come from? That's what current market is on a reasonable prep car.
But if you propose all 1.6's sell out now how many will be forsale?
The market is supply vs. Demand.

So when all 1.6's go to sell, and go 99 do you think the $8k to $12k will stay that way?
And where do you propose these cars get sold too?
Oh this 1.6 only class just for these cast offs.

I personally don't want the 1.6 only, I think one big class gives you more to race with, more to learn from, and a better class.
Be it a header and tuning, CR bump, or cams, I would like to see it more equalized.
Oh, give the 1.6 more and it will be an over dog on top end, ok, so give more grunt down low, and a restrictor plate to cut top end, just like others.
But that's just my opinion, which will only be worth anything later next year
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