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Lap Statistics (Anyone using them?)

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#1
TrailBrake

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Does anyone look at any lap stats? I know I have found some great uses for them to see how the car changes over the length of a session, to compare two different setups, compare drivers, and even use them to work on finding the best setups. I've included a couple of graphs to illustrate some of the info that can be looked at. The Grip Factor is a great way that Jorge Segers has developed to place a value on the tires grip in each segment of the cars dynamic movement (combined grip, forward bite (traction), cornering, braking, and even aero). 

 

So, anyone else doing anything like this?

 

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Attached File  Grip Factor Radar.png   8.22KB   3 downloads


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#2
TrailBrake

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99 views and no one does anything like this or has questions about it?


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#3
Alberto

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What is "Lap Statistics"?  Is that some kind of software product?


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#4
mhiggins10

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What are you generating that data from? How are you measuring grip- lateral gs, slip angle, etc?
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#5
TrailBrake

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What is "Lap Statistics"?  Is that some kind of software product?

 

Nope, sorry I wasn't more clear. A lot of times when we look at data, we look at finer and finer detail. For instance, we'll look at a lap, then a specific corner, then the turn in. This is taking a step back and saying, what if we look at an average (or max or min) from a lap and then compare it to lap time, another measure, or just chart it lap after lap. To make these, I used an AiM logger and exported a channel report that had the average for each lap. I opened that up in Excel and then made the charts.

 

I've included two more to help explain the idea better. The first shows tires temps and lap time on the Y axis (vertical) and lap number across the bottom. You can see the dip in the lap time matches up to the increase in tire temp. If we build a graph just comparing the tire temps versus lap time you can really see the relationship. This was a pretty cold day, but if you got enough temp into the tire, you would see the higher temps start to give higher lap times as the tire overheats. The same can be done with the tire temps versus lat or long G, grip factors, etc to really see the optimal temps for the tires. Then, if you do similar with tire pressures and other setup measures, you can figure out the optimal setup window for you car. 

 

It's sort of like taking data mining and applying it to race cars!

 

What are you generating that data from? How are you measuring grip- lateral gs, slip angle, etc?

 

This is using lateral and longitudinal Gs to develop the numbers. The Grip Factors use specific portions of the Combined G to show how much traction you have in cornering, braking, accelerating, and overall.

 

This is all laid out in Jorge Seger's book "Analysis Techniques for Racecar Data Acquisition Second Edition." Jorge is a DTM data engineer and share some of the measures and methods that they use to determine the best best car setup, driver analysis, and pre/post event information. It's really a great book. This is it on Amazon http://www.amazon.co...ASIN=0768064597

 

Attached File  Mazda Racer.png   38.65KB   0 downloads

 

Attached File  Mazda Racer 2.png   18.15KB   0 downloads


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#6
Diller

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Are you asking if people use data acquisition to compare laps? If so then, hell yes. Pretty sure that all of the front runners are using some sort of data and compare everything. I believe it is a requirement if you really want to keep improving. you can only get so much from lat/long G-forces, adding steering angle, throttle position, and brake pressure adds so much more information to help improve. 


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#7
Ron Alan

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Trailbrake,

Pretty sure your first posts on here were related to a seminar you were selling? Is this thread going down the same path?

Try your real name, SM racer or not, car number and year and so on. Nice for those in your area to know who you are. If you are looking for clients...be up front about it. Sorry if I'm way off base here...If so I'm sure you will clear up my impressions.

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#8
TrailBrake

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Trailbrake,

Pretty sure your first posts on here were related to a seminar you were selling? Is this thread going down the same path?

Try your real name, SM racer or not, car number and year and so on. Nice for those in your area to know who you are. If you are looking for clients...be up front about it. Sorry if I'm way off base here...If so I'm sure you will clear up my impressions.

 

Hi Ron,

 

My name is Matt Romanowski. The seminar posting wasn't my first. I've mostly posted on data info, as that is where my interest is. I'm actually a Porsche guy, not a strict Miata guy. I'm not looking for clients or anything else. I have a passion for data analysis and started my website to share some of the knowledge I have, resources, and to help folks use their data systems for more than a lap timer. I posted here at Mazda Racers because it looked like a pretty good data forum and a spot to discuss some data topics and learn something. Hopefully that has come across in my other posts. I apologize if my posts haven't helped people or given them some new ideas for their analysis.

 

In full disclosure, I am an AiM dealer, so most of my help and software help will involve AiM products, though the guts of data analysis isn't system specific. This post was because the idea of "zooming out" from your data and looking at bigger and bigger trends is very helpful in car setup, driver analysis, and gleaming some extra insights into your driving. In a class that is as competitive as Spec Miata, every little bit of knowledge makes a difference. 

 

Sorry if you got the wrong impression. I think people found the Randy Pobst/Roger Caddell webinar informative, especially since it was put on by Mazdaspeed. I've tried to answer other questions people have when I'm able to answer it and to posts some things like this to get a discussion going. If that is not what this community is, please let me know and I'll stop.

 

Matt Romanowski

 

Edit: If it seems like I'm pushing the book it's because in my opinion, giving out the math channels or exact thing he wrote is taking away his Intellectual Property (IP) and against copyrights. When it's my IP, I can freely give it out, but when it's something from a specific person or book, I can't just post the actual thing. I think it's great to tell of the concepts and general ideas, but not the specifics of exactly how he does it. I hope this makes sense.


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#9
Steve Scheifler

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I assume a sales pitch of sorts too. I have no problem with that, especially if you genuinely introduce people to useful concepts, but I agree it's best to identify yourself from the start or you come off more as a shill than a helpful participant.

That said, we have at times looked at a few such stats but we were never running sensors for thing like tie temps and pressures. I can see how it would be a very useful addition to the time spent on data analysis but the hardest part has alwayss been making the time to get the most out of even the basics.

If someone decided to add one lap-stat to their program, which one covered in the book would you say are the most useful and what additional sensors/channels are required?

Edit: I see that while I was typing on this tiny screen you introduced yourself. Excellent! I am not an AiM user but I am interested in getting more from our data, so I'm pleased that you are here.
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#10
TrailBrake

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Are you asking if people use data acquisition to compare laps? If so then, hell yes. Pretty sure that all of the front runners are using some sort of data and compare everything. I believe it is a requirement if you really want to keep improving. you can only get so much from lat/long G-forces, adding steering angle, throttle position, and brake pressure adds so much more information to help improve. 

 

I have no doubt that almost all (maybe all?) front runners have data in their car and do plenty of analysis. I would bet the front runners all have systems that include driver performance measures like steering angle, throttle position, brake pressure, long and lat G, RPM, etc. They probably have a bunch of car measures for things like oil pressure, oil temp, water temp, and some wheel speeds.

 

This is more of a question if anyone is taking a step back rather than a step further in? Most times when we analyze data and compare laps, it's on specific things like a brake point, turn in point, throttle application, etc. This is train of thought is more along the lines of does anyone look at quantifying how tires fall off over the course of a session? How average throttle position compares at two different tracks? How two different brake pads perform at the same pressure? Or how two different brake pads create different rates of slowing for the same brake pressure?


Matt Romanowski

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#11
TrailBrake

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I assume a sales pitch of sorts too. I have no problem with that, especially if you genuinely introduce people to useful concepts, but I agree it's best to identify yourself from the start or you come off more as a shill than a helpful participant.

That said, we have at times looked at a few such stats but we were never running sensors for thing like tie temps and pressures. I can see how it would be a very useful addition to the time spent on data analysis but the hardest part has alwayss been making the time to get the most out of even the basics.

If someone decided to add one lap-stat to their program, which one covered in the book would you say are the most useful and what additional sensors/channels are required?

 

With some planning, you can make sure you get the most from your analysis. If you can choose a couple of areas you think make the biggest difference, then you can develop a way to try and measure it.

 

The grip factors is done completely with long and lat G force, so no need for extra sensors. Having brake pressures, steering, and throttle will give you a bunch of good info to look at as well. You'll be able to see if a change allowed you to have a longer time at full throttle, if setup changes change your max brake capability, how different pads respond to brake pressure (the release can be very surprising).

 

AiM can do lap stats. When you do a "channels report" you can do minimum, maximum, average, and a bunch of different things for each lap. This can be done for anything you have sensors on or for math channels. 

 

What system are you using?


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#12
Steve Scheifler

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We were very early adopters of the Race-Technology products because they were the first consumer GPS units we found, and I still like them. Familiarity is always a big factor in preference of course. We added steering sensors at one point but they were fragile and we didn't get much out of them anyway. I think one still works. I started working on a TPS (1.6 cars) but was unhappy with the claptrap and didn't come up with something better before we quit racing. I'm rebuilding the cars now and already worried about getting done by spring, but may still try to add something to the data.
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#13
TrailBrake

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We were very early adopters of the Race-Technology products because they were the first consumer GPS units we found, and I still like them. Familiarity is always a big factor in preference of course. We added steering sensors at one point but they were fragile and we didn't get much out of them anyway. I think one still works. I started working on a TPS (1.6 cars) but was unhappy with the claptrap and didn't come up with something better before we quit racing. I'm rebuilding the cars now and already worried about getting done by spring, but may still try to add something to the data.

 

I don't know the Race Technology equipment, but I know it is powerful. Kamal at http://www.kinelogix.com/ is an expert with it. He does lots of motorcycle work, but I'm sure he can help you out when you are ready. For steering sensors, I think string pots are the easiest way. They don't slip, are easy to install, and never lose center. They are a great way to get throttle position as well (I'm not an advocate of tapping the ECU sensor). 


Matt Romanowski

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#14
Diller

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l (I'm not an advocate of tapping the ECU sensor). 

 

 

I'm curious why you say this. As long as the primary current goes back to the ECU, most data loggers can get by with a very small current. Most will use a small 1K ohm resistor on the data logger wire but on the NA1.8s that isn't required. I believe only the 99+ require the addition of a resistor.

 

I am still learning all I can about data logging so I like to hear as many different ways to do something so I can be more educated. Your thread has made me want to look back at my Traqmate data and see if I can pull some overall lap stats to see how they compare at WOT, time on brakes, etc.

 

Do you have a link to a robust steering angle sensor. That is next on my data wish list as I have always heard that the less you turn the wheel, the faster you go.


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#15
Ron Alan

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Thanks Matt! Easy clear up...and glad you have something to share! The site occasionally gets some real winners so it's best when these get weeded out quickly. Maybe add your name in your profile(doesn't come up on your screen name)so others like myself who look know you are a real person :)

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#16
TrailBrake

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I'm curious why you say this. As long as the primary current goes back to the ECU, most data loggers can get by with a very small current. Most will use a small 1K ohm resistor on the data logger wire but on the NA1.8s that isn't required. I believe only the 99+ require the addition of a resistor.

 

I am still learning all I can about data logging so I like to hear as many different ways to do something so I can be more educated. Your thread has made me want to look back at my Traqmate data and see if I can pull some overall lap stats to see how they compare at WOT, time on brakes, etc.

 

Do you have a link to a robust steering angle sensor. That is next on my data wish list as I have always heard that the less you turn the wheel, the faster you go.

 

My thought is that I try to keep things simple. When you are at the track, the car isn't running quite right, do you want to be wondering if the problem is where you tapped into the wiring harness for the sensor? To me, I put the additional sensor on for just the data and then their is no way it's impacting anything else. Again, personal preference. 

 

Check out http://www.unimeasure.com/index.html for some string sensors. These are good for things like throttle position, steering, brake pedal travel, etc, but not for suspension movement (they will build slack in the cable). For a big listing of sensor manufacturers, check out the list I've compiled at http://www.trailbrake.net/resources#sensors

 

I will also say, 99% of the time it's cheaper to buy the sensor with the appropriate connector on it from the data system manufacturer (or dealer, retailer, etc) than it is to buy them from the manufacturer, figure out the wiring, and put the appropriate connector on. 


Matt Romanowski

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#17
Danny Steyn

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Welcome Matt

As an avid data guy, I appreciate your contribution and look forward to your insights. 

Brake pressure understood, but I find it interesting that mention brake pedal travel. Not sure of the value of this, other than seeing how much the pads wear per session. Care to explain?


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#18
TrailBrake

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Welcome Matt

As an avid data guy, I appreciate your contribution and look forward to your insights. 

Brake pressure understood, but I find it interesting that mention brake pedal travel. Not sure of the value of this, other than seeing how much the pads wear per session. Care to explain?

 

Pedal travel is not real important for most people, but it's a spot where using a string pot works. You can see things like pad wear, expansion of hoses when hot, compressibility of the fluid, and similar things. For most people, that is beyond what they need. 


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#19
Steve Scheifler

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Your car must look like a marionette.
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#20
TrailBrake

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Your car must look like a marionette.

Ha!

 

My car does have a few sensors on it. 2 oil temps, 1 transmission temp, oil pressure, fuel pressure, brake pressure, throttle position, steering, air temp, IR brake temps, IR tire temps (4 per rear tire, 1 per front tire), shock pots, 4 wheel speeds, crankcase pressure, and GPS. Then there are lots of math channels in RS2. I'm working on some TPMS sensors now. There is lots to learn about/with tire pressures!


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