45 replies to this topic

[Alberto]

This was a surprise...

 

I was aligning the car in the garage and noticed that this "washer" thing kept rotating past the horseshoe inset on one bolt in the rear subframe.  This was the pax rear control arm front bolt.   Took it apart and noticed that the washer's "teeth" / detents were gone and that the bolt had started to thread into it. 

 

Checked the other washer thingies and noticed that the detents were worn to sharp points on a few of them.

 

Any cause for this? 

Are these parts a wear item?

How often should they be checked?

 

This was with the "new" design camber bolts purchased new when I built the car in 2010.  It's had 1-2 alignments per year since then.  I ordered some replacement washers (they are available separately) and another 4 cam bolt, washer, nut "kits" just in case I find the camber bolt threads are hosed.

 

Thanks.

 

[Tom Sager]

Pretty normal occurrence after that much time.  Those have been worn out for a while, pretty far gone.  I was not aware that Mazda sells the washers separately.  You might consider replacing the entire bolt/washer/nut kit as the nuts and bolts also stretch.  I think Advanced Autosports sells a sturdier  bolt/washer/nut kit that should last a lot longer.  

[Alberto]

Pretty normal occurrence after that much time.  Those have been worn out for a while, pretty far gone.  I was not aware that Mazda sells the washers separately.  You might consider replacing the entire bolt/washer/nut kit as the nuts and bolts also stretch.  I think Advanced Autosports sells a sturdier  bolt/washer/nut kit that should last a lot longer.  

 

Really?  Didn't realize that

 

Also, didn't realize that Dave had one-upped Mazda and a better alternative was out there...

http://www.advanced-...3d94c3e90574ff1

 

[davew]

To answer the questions, yes these are a wear item. Five or six allignments is all they last. In an emergency, replace the bad one. At your next allignment replace them all.

 

Mazda now sells the parts individually. You order a bolt, a washer and a nut seperately.

 

I sell them as a single cam set or as a car set (8 cams)

 

I am now working with the manufacturer for upgraded cams for the NC cars. Hope to have that worked out in the next few weeks.

 

dave

[OctaneNation]

I had one fail the first time I torqued it up. It was a brand new one from Mazda. The beefed up version. I added a bit of lube under the nut to the others and it didn't happen again. YMMV

[FTodaro]

FYI one of the reasons they fail is that if you leave the bolt to tight when your adjusting it will just strip out that notch. They will last a little longer if you have the bolt loose when adjusting.

[SaulSpeedwell]

Dave's beefier piece looks nice - whether you use that or stock, putting grease under the NUT (and ONLY the NUT), while keeping the washer-to-subframe interface squeaky clean, will keep your applied torque and nut-to-washer friction from trying to spin and "strip" those eccentric washer tabs. 

[Alberto]

Thanks for the info and lube ideas.

 

If I had more time, I'm sure I could think of something funny to say about lubing the nuts

[Tom Hampton]

I'm sure that about 532 jokes about shafts, nuts, rings, and lube.  But, who has the time to list them all?

[Killian]

I noticed that the nuts were oblong, so they chew into the bolt. Providing that the cam's teeth haven't worn down, is it mainly the bolt that becomes the wear item and the nuts survive?

[davew]

Several things contribute to the problem.

 

The bolts do not fit the sleeves tight enough. If the cams are not over tightened the sleeves will shift on the bolt. heard as a clunk in hard cornering force turns. especially transitions from side to side.

 

To cure issue number 1, we over tighten the bolts beyond their yield strength, thus loosing torque.

 

On budget builds, the suspension is not disassembled, the bolts seize in the bushings. When the cams are turned, the stress from being seized on the bushing puts even more strain on the bolts and the cam "teeth"

 

You must loosen the cams enough when adjusting.

 

You must hold the bolt when tightening the nut.

 

Failure to lube or at least have slippage between the nut and washer during adjustment

 

Because we over tighten the cams, they actually bend into a bowl shape. reducing the mateing surface between the washers and the subframe. So we over tighten some more.

 

Some times you can flip the cams over and get another allignment out of them.

 

We overtighten the bejesus out of these things because we are racing Barbie cars.

 

dave

[SaulSpeedwell]

I had one fail the first time I torqued it up. It was a brand new one from Mazda. The beefed up version. I added a bit of lube under the nut to the others and it didn't happen again. YMMV

 

DING DING DING DING!

 

I look at it this way, the stackup of this joint is a friction "clutch", but you only want it clutching to the subframe and not the nut you are torquing right after you laser-aligned your 1mm of toe-in.

 

Clean everything so that the joint will hold.  Lightly Grease ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY the surface under the nut.  Alignments will be quicker, and bolts will last a LOOOOONNNG time.

[SaulSpeedwell]

I'm sure that about 532 jokes about shafts, nuts, rings, and lube.  But, who has the time to list them all?

 

You boob.  I don't even know you, and you are my favorite Texan.

[Tom Hampton]

You boob. I don't even know you, and you are my favorite Texan.

I get that a lot.

[Alberto]

I was out in the garage earlier comparing and critiquing my old bolts, washers and nuts to new one from Mazda Motorsports and Advanced Autosports.  Even when new Mazda washers have a decent amount of slop in them when mounted in new bolts when compared to Dave's.  Having new examples of both in my hand, I would highly recommend the camber bolts from Advanced Autosports over the OE Mazda ones.  They are just that much better.  

 

I'm going to install them in the next couple of days.  Maybe I'll make a Saul Speedwell style video comparing the 3.

 

Also, after looking at my old bolts bought in 2010 from Mazda Motorsports and looking closely at the threads on the nuts, the nuts are done too.  They don't even thread onto the new bolts in a manner that feels right.  The new nuts thread onto the new bolts smoothly though.  These are definitely a wear item and need to be replaced with some frequency.  Let's see how Dave's parts hold up.

[OctaneNation]

Are Dave's "Tech Shed Legal"?

[davew]

Paraphrasing: Hardware items are free as long as they perform the same function, in the same manner and do not perform a non-compliant function. The exception being internal engine components.

 

dave

[Jim Drago]

Are Dave's "Tech Shed Legal"?

IDK.. If this was me.. It would never pass the bench racer test    

[Bench Racer]

IDK.. If this was me.. It would never pass the bench racer test    

 

IADGAF

 

For argument sake, what is the definition of "hardware"?  For argument sake and my it could be anything from hardware store nuts, bolts and washers to computers to any part on a Miata. Therefore back in the day, cheating the ECU for fuel pressure and timing was legal from the get-go.

[Jim Drago]

IADGAF
 
For argument sake, what is the definition of "hardware"?  For argument sake and my it could be anything from hardware store nuts, bolts and washers to computers to any part on a Miata. Therefore back in the day, cheating the ECU for fuel pressure and timing was legal from the get-go.

There you go not answering again.. Compliant or non compliant to GCR please? I know it's hard as Dave is one of your guys.. if it were me, it would be a lot easier

 

Discalimer: I could care less about Daves cam bolts