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newbie here and some questions about tire handling

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#1
lx93

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sorry if this has been asked before (i tried researching this topic). i am a newbie at racing, and just the past racing weekend at NJMP I locked up one of my tires. now its flat spotted not by too much, but you can see the groove disappear at the spot. so for those TOYO RR and Hoosiers once they are flatspotted are they just done? 

 

and also, my hoosier sm6 are made in 2012 and have been through three winters of unheated garage, weather here up in MA can be quite tough. they are now all pretty hard to the touch, and they feel a bit slippery to me even after heated up (i have never driven on fresh new Hoosiers so i can't compare). are they destroyed by the cold sub 30 degrees winter?

 

 

and i ran one of my TOYO RR down to the cord during practice, the outside is completely worn down and inside still has a bit meat left. would that be an indication of not enough camber?

 

Thanks in advance, and i apologize if the questions have been asked before

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#2
Johnny D

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Welcome, so tell us what you're thinking short and long term...

Track car, SCCA, NASA, on budget, things you still need to do before.., etc.

J~


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#3
lx93

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This is my race car and i race regionally here in the Northeast with both SCCA and NASA. Car is a 96 and I am on a budget. I am at the point where I want to move from the mid-end pack into the front runners, and trying to make my car more competitive, recently have a 50k street motor put in the car. next up i am thinking moving to a Torsen rear end. but tires seem to be the most important step before anything else.



#4
Johnny D

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Ya, RR's and Hosiers are a little different in handling and I hear the setup is different too because of it.

IMO. the RR's are a little more budget friendly, but if can get SM7's hand me down, like with 6 heat cycles, for a good price and your cool with it.

It could be the way to go. Whatever deal is going on in your reg.

 

You know the contingency for Toyo ad Hoosier NASA / SCCA?

 

I'd suggest focusing on one club and setup the car to that tire and/or a track you run at.

 

You can do both clubs but I'd suggest quality not quantity if your to improve.

 

Adding a torsen??? sound good.

Anything else on the to do list?

J~


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#5
lx93

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i am aware of contingency program and in fact just got my first $75 toyo bucks from last weekend. as far as the car goes, I am contemplating whether to put in new shocks/bushing in the car since i was told they are a bit worn. but i was also told by some others they are not that important. i do not know what else one can do to a car to be more competitive. 

 

is running on slightly flat-spotted tires a big no-no? 



#6
davew

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Since nobody answered any of your questions......

 

2012 tires are not good, even if stored properly, which yours where not. 3 year old street tires are not much different from new street tires because of the chemicals used in the rubber. Race rubber is expected to be used and discarded in a short period of time. Any tire starts to cure the day it is made, race rubber cures faster than normal. Both Hoosier and Toyo use the standard date coding system. Somewhere on the sidewall you will find a stamped in serial number. The last 4 digits of the serial number are the week and year of manufacture. i.e. 1012 would be the 10th week of 2012 (mid march for those without a calender ;-))

 

Flat spotted tires never get better. They usually get worse, as the tire tends to find the same spot to lock up (even easier) the next time. Minor flat spots or emergency rotation to the unloaded rear tire (usually the right rear) can get some more use out of a flat spotted tire.

 

Outside edge wear can be caused by multiple things. Lack of negative camber is one. Excessive toe in or low tire pressure. Or lack of rotation. Most tracks are right turn dominate. Therefore the left front tire takes the most abuse. The outside edge getting the most abuse. One of my new advise phrases is to remind the drivers to save the left front and abuse the left rear. Getting the car to rotate, so weight transfer goes onto the rear tires during cornering, will dramaticly save the left front tire.

 

Tires are one of our biggest expenses. Learning not to abuse the tires will save you money, but also make you faster in the long run. Proper tire and car maintenance also helps. Proper allignments, rotations and pressure all contribute to tire life/budget.

 

You have several quality SM shops in your area. Have them look the car over and advise you on what is really needed. Stop guessing and start diagnosing.

 

dave


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#7
MPR22

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Dave handled most of it.  

 

Toyo's seem to be usable until your run out of tread or damage the tread by not rotating properly, less sensitive to heat cycling.  

 

Hoosier SM7's are still heat cycle limited, they hit a wall even with tons of rubber left on them that leads to a significant drop off in grip.  

 

In your post you mentioned you want to work your way forward from the middle to the front.  Using less than premium tires will keep you from that goal.  It is one of the greatest expenses but also one of the most necessary expenses in this class.  You cannot judge a cars handling on bad rubber.  If i were budget limited I would race one series, probably NASA because I believe the tire expense to be less on the Toyo's.  If I needed more seat time, I would find a chump car race.  You can't get seat time cheaper than Chump or similar series.  It will also teach you the necessary race craft to pass cars that are faster in straight line and keep them behind you.  


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#8
Steve Scheifler

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Dave touched on it, but to add detail and emphasis, if you find that you are wearing the front outsides more than faster people with similar camber & toe, then start looking at the possibility that you are apexing too early and pushing at exit. It is a common mistake, especially by people who are mid-pack or back even with a more competitive car.

Don't bother with shocks yet unless they are leaking or you can tell the difference side-to-side or front-to-rear with a simple jounce test. Then pull them off and do some simple testing with a bathroom scale. In other words, don't trust someone who says they seem a little worn. Likewise bushings. Other than the upper-outer-rear, which gets cooked, it is unlikely that any have slop in them, which is what matters.

Throw those tires away.
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#9
topgear3793

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Toyo RR FTW, still competitive with 20 heat cycles!


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#10
ChrisA

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Tires are one of our biggest expenses. Learning not to abuse the tires will save you money, but also make you faster in the long run. Proper tire and car maintenance also helps. Proper allignments, rotations and pressure all contribute to tire life/budget.

 

dave

 

Along this line, is there a pattern you like to follow when rotating Hoosiers?


Chris

 

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#11
davew

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General rule of thumb, some tracks vary;

Best tire left front, next best left rear, next best rt front, worst right rear.

Rotate as needed every 3-4 sessions

 

dave


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#12
Randy Wolfgram

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Sorry, hope this isn't considered a thread-jack.  How about flipping them on the rim at some point?  Bad idea?  Just want to validate some advice I was given.



#13
Alberto

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Sorry, hope this isn't considered a thread-jack.  How about flipping them on the rim at some point?  Bad idea?  Just want to validate some advice I was given.

 

my experience doing that with RA1s: http://blog.miatarac...hould-know.html

Not sure if any of that is applicable to HoHos or RRs


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#14
Randy Wolfgram

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my experience doing that with RA1s: http://blog.miatarac...hould-know.html

Not sure if any of that is applicable to HoHos or RRs

 

Interesting.  Thanks, Alberto.  I guess I'll find out n a couple of weeks how RRs react...



#15
Johnny D

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FYI, Randy, the 1st year the RR's came out, they were directional or certain mounting, not really a problem now.

http://mazdaracers.c...-toyo-rr-tires/

J~


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#16
Alberto

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^Forgot all about that w/ RRs.  Is that no longer an issue?


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#17
philstireservice

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^Forgot all about that w/ RRs.  Is that no longer an issue?

It is still recommended by Toyo to run them in the "designed configuration".


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#18
Randy Wolfgram

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It is still recommended by Toyo to run them in the "designed configuration".

 

Thanks for confirming that as that was my concern.



#19
lx93

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thanks folks clearing up my concerns about the tires. I ordered a new set of TOYO RR for next weekend and see if I could improve my lap time at NJMP. I am also trying to fit a new seat, anyone knows if a Cobra Sebring would fit in our miatas?



#20
ChrisA

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Just had a set of tires mounted at the track. One had about 10-12" strip of weight added, 2-3/4 oz. another had a 3 oz block added. At what point do you tell the guys, "No", and have them pull the tire and try again?


Chris

 

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