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#41
Bench Racer

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Take a peak at the FSM installing a cam belt.

James, do you read anything within this post referencing timing. sometimes we need to give things a rest with a little, :blush:

 

Now I'm going to the garage to finish ILLEGALLY wrapping the tube from AFM to throttle body tube because the temp across the tube increases by 40* F. I'll let ya all know the ILLEGAL results after my next time out.


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#42
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James, do you read anything within this post referencing timing. sometimes we need to give things a rest with a little, :blush:

 

Now I'm going to the garage to finish ILLEGALLY wrapping the tube from AFM to throttle body tube because the temp across the tube increases by 40* F. I'll let ya all know the ILLEGAL results after my next time out.

Oh this is rich!! Bench telling another poster that they may want to give a subject a rest.


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#43
Tom Hampton

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Oh this is rich!! Bench telling another poster that they may want to give a subject a rest.

Huh.  That means hell has frozen over, the beatles are getting back together, and Elvis was abducted by aliens and they just brought him back. 


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#44
Jamz14

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If that were true, I have no problem with it.  In my specific case, no you can't.  Because mine ARE torqued to FSM specs---its part of my pre-race inspection checklist, along with all other suspension and driveline nuts/bolts (all of which are torqued to factory specs).  The exception to that would be the alignment cam bolts which are tightened to the "jesus f-ing christ" level---protest away.

Tom, Come on buddy. The point of the example my friend!! Granted you may not violate as you torque your hubs and every bolt but one to factory spec. Is that really the point I was trying to make? You know that wasn't my point. I was giving examples of how that GCR rule you cited does have an intent and the intent is important and that the "words" of the rule can and do lead people astray. Do you not ever use zip ties instead of the factory fasteners? Should all the guys that dont run top tranny bolts also be looked at as violating the intent and words of the regulations ( I don't have them in)? The examples are many. The point I was trying to make is that the GCR you cited, do you think that in intent, changing the cam position in relationship to TDC is within what they wanted to address in that rule? Or is it a catch all rule so that people don't have to worry about writing a rule to catch every little thing? Why do you think they would specifically write a rule that prevents me from detuning my car by "7 hp"? They wouldn't. So I say that the intent of that rule was not to stop people from doing good mechanical analysis and coming up with good tuning practices that gives them an advantage over their competitor. A cam offset is nothing more than a potential tuning practice and is within the ability and budget of every racer should he so choose to do it. No extra parts are used, no modification to existing parts are done. No special surfacing or metal treatments. Nothing even moved from its original mounting position. No different in any way to sliding the cam position sensor in its slot to achieve a different ignition timing.

 

Have you forgotten how beautifully the "words" were exploited when it came to plunge cuts ? Did they cheat? No!!!!!!!!!!! Did they exploit poor use of the defining language? Yes!!!!!!!!! (specifically on concentricity, not talking about relief cuts. IMO that was just pure genius for the people that thought of that advantage). Now we have a rule that prevents it. A real rule.


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#45
James York

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A cam offset is nothing more than a potential tuning practice and is within the ability and budget of every racer should he so choose to do it. No extra parts are used, no modification to existing parts are done. No special surfacing or metal treatments. Nothing even moved from its original mounting position. No different in any way to sliding the cam position sensor in its slot to achieve a different ignition timing.

 

 

So I take it you would be ok with me tuning my ecu using this criteria?  After all, even a caveman can do it.


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#46
Steve Scheifler

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You guys are hilarious, but apparently don't read a lot or need a better memory.

Jamz, I wasn't ignoring you after my last post, just busy and lost track of those. I think Chris covered it, but odd that nobody mentioned this:

g. Camshaft
1. Camshafts must comply with the official camshaft specifi- cations as supplied by the SCCA Club Racing Tech Depart- ment. The camshaft and crankshaft sprockets must be as supplied by Mazda. Cam timing must not be altered; the belt must be installed as specified in the Mazda factory service manual.
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#47
Tom Sager

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Are you saying that if I offset the cam position by one tooth from the stock alignment that that is illegal? If so, can you point me to the section?

Both NASA and NASA have published cam specs showing detailed lift and degree specs relative to TDC and BDC.  I believe that an engine with cam timing tweaked as far as 1 tooth or even much less than a tooth would fail.  See appendix B at link.

https://nasa-assets....INAL_2015v6.pdf


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#48
Tom Hampton

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Tom, Come on buddy. The point of the example my friend!! Granted you may not violate as you torque your hubs and every bolt but one to factory spec. Is that really the point I was trying to make? You know that wasn't my point. I was giving examples of how that GCR rule you cited does have an intent and the intent is important and that the "words" of the rule can and do lead people astray. Do you not ever use zip ties instead of the factory fasteners? Should all the guys that dont run top tranny bolts also be looked at as violating the intent and words of the regulations ( I don't have them in)? The examples are many. The point I was trying to make is that the GCR you cited, do you think that in intent, changing the cam position in relationship to TDC is within what they wanted to address in that rule? Or is it a catch all rule so that people don't have to worry about writing a rule to catch every little thing? Why do you think they would specifically write a rule that prevents me from detuning my car by "7 hp"? They wouldn't. So I say that the intent of that rule was not to stop people from doing good mechanical analysis and coming up with good tuning practices that gives them an advantage over their competitor. A cam offset is nothing more than a potential tuning practice and is within the ability and budget of every racer should he so choose to do it. No extra parts are used, no modification to existing parts are done. No special surfacing or metal treatments. Nothing even moved from its original mounting position. No different in any way to sliding the cam position sensor in its slot to achieve a different ignition timing.

Have you forgotten how beautifully the "words" were exploited when it came to plunge cuts ? Did they cheat? No!!!!!!!!!!! Did they exploit poor use of the defining language? Yes!!!!!!!!! (specifically on concentricity, not talking about relief cuts. IMO that was just pure genius for the people that thought of that advantage). Now we have a rule that prevents it. A real rule.

James-

I fundamentally disagree with essentially your entire premise above .

Yes, I think that any non-compliance with the fsm not specifically allowed by the explicit rules is protestable. So, yes if you want to protest my zip ties please go ahead. Of course you will have to leave crazy
-cali and come to Texas to do it.

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#49
Bench Racer

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Both NASA and SCCA have published cam specs showing detailed lift and degree specs relative to TDC and BDC.  I believe that an engine with cam timing tweaked as far as 1 tooth or even much less than a tooth would fail.  See appendix B at link.

https://nasa-assets....INAL_2015v6.pdf

                            ^ If you don't mind.

 


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#50
Brandon

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I've gone looking for a raincoat so I can stay dry in this pissing match!

 

:hugegrin:


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#51
Tom Sager

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                            ^ If you don't mind.

Page 729 of GCR....

 

"g. Camshaft 1. Camshafts must comply with the official camshaft specifications as supplied by the SCCA Club Racing Tech Depart- ment. The camshaft and crankshaft sprockets must be as supplied by Mazda. Cam timing must not be altered; the belt must be installed as specified in the Mazda factory service manual." 

 

I suggest you contact the Club Racing Tech Department if you want a copy with the SCCA logo on it.   :cheers:

You're driving a 25 year old car Dave.  You might want to get the cam specs and check your lift at the intervals specified for each lobe just to make sure nothing is worn and out of spec.  :D


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#52
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Both NASA and      SCCA     have published cam specs showing detailed lift and degree specs relative to TDC and BDC.  I believe that an engine with cam timing tweaked as far as 1 tooth or even much less than a tooth would fail.  See appendix B at link.

https://nasa-assets....INAL_2015v6.pdf

                               ^ If you don't mind.

 

You missed the whole point of the post. The point of the post was/is I believe you meant to say NASA and SCCA. Not NASA and NASA. :bigsquaregrin:

Then Jim found pilling on being entertaining, whatever.

By the way I not only understand cams/specs, I have an illegal set from back in the day. No, I don't use them.


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#53
Jim Drago

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your more sensitive than normal :)not sure how I piled on by liking a post that put up how/why my post about checking timing belt and compliance was a good one. i was just too lazy too look it up :)

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#54
Tom Sager

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                               ^ If you don't mind.

 

You missed the whole point of the post. The point of the post was/is I believe you meant to say NASA and SCCA. Not NASA and NASA. :bigsquaregrin:

Then Jim found pilling on being entertaining, whatever.

By the way I not only understand cams/specs, I have an illegal set from back in the day. No, I don't use them.

My best defense was good offense.  


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#55
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.010" max corner fillet? That's pretty tight. A "sharp" tool, usually .004"-.006" generally produces a filet radius .001"-.002" greater than the tool. A brand new tool could be producing .008" out of the box and deteriorating from there. The sharper the tool the quicker it breaks down. To properly inspect this you would have to make a proper mold and view it on an optical comparator. I doubt tech will have those on hand. Why make a rule that will likely be violated and cannot be verified in tech? It's hard for me to understand why anything less than .03" max fillet rad would be required. I'd bet there are stock heads close to that.


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#56
Jamz14

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Both NASA and NASA have published cam specs showing detailed lift and degree specs relative to TDC and BDC.  I believe that an engine with cam timing tweaked as far as 1 tooth or even much less than a tooth would fail.  See appendix B at link.

https://nasa-assets....INAL_2015v6.pdf

Thank you Tom. Seems definitive.


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#57
Ron Alan

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Phew!

 

So who is going to win the Frank Todaro "Well Endowed" award???


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#58
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Phew!

 

So who is going to win the Frank Todaro "Well Endowed" award???

Err, Hmmm, you could start the competition by posting a selfeeee. :bigsquaregrin:


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#59
Tom Sager

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Phew!

 

So who is going to win the Frank Todaro "Well Endowed" award???

Ron, would you consider being the judge and handing out the awards?  


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#60
Todd Green

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1. Show me the GCR that prevents me from slipping one or both of the cams in one direction or the other when the engine is at TDC?


Even though there happens to be a specific rule in this case (which you would have known had you bothered to read the rules), that isn't how the GCR (and most racing rule books) work. The onus isn't on others to show you where it says you can't do something.  You need to show where in the rules it says you can.  By your logic I'll ask, "Show me where in the rules it says I can't go to all my competitors' cars in grid before the race and let the air out of their tires.(*)"  Creative interpretation of the rules "intent" is why we have a 900+ page rule book in the first place.

 

* Yeah, yeah, you could probably quote 2.1.7. Acting in an unsportsmanlike manner. So I'll just make sure Brady is at the event and he lets the air out of the tires. :P


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