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Challenge crash at Road Americ


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#1
Zauskycop

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If you hadn't already seen the crash, this video montage does a great job of really showing all the angles to see the incident develop.   It sure changed my opinion...Incredible to see the driver walk away...

 

https://youtu.be/tK9LAdUpLtk


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#2
mhiggins10

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Amazing indeed.  My thought is the black car almost certainly caused the crash, intentionally it would appear.  You can see the driver look in the side mirror and move left, attempting to close the door...


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#3
MPR22

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If you hadn't already seen the crash, this video montage does a great job of really showing all the angles to see the incident develop.   It sure changed my opinion...Incredible to see the driver walk away...

 

https://youtu.be/tK9LAdUpLtk

And according to NASA rules the red car that was destroyed was at fault.  He should have been prepared to go 2 wheels off to complete a pass.  

 

Watching that makes me sick, there is really no place in racing for last second blocks at those speeds.  I have seen some of the worst blocking in Ferrari Challenge racing, you would think they are racing for a seat in F1.  


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#4
Jamz14

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Come on now Ross. Just because NASA rules state that you need to be prepared to go 2 off to pass doesn't give you the right to break the other rules against blocking and intentionally causing a crash. The issue in the video wasn't a difference between 3/4 car width or full car width. It is an issue of sporstmanship and safety. And the real issue comes down to one of intent by the black car. Everyone might see signs that this was intentional and it might very well have been. And the officials will ultimately have to make a call whether it was or not. I have heard very few times where a driver stated that he purposely crashed someone. But at the end of the day it is still an issue of intent. If no maliciousness intended, a racing incident. Purposeful blocking; black would be suspended in my world.


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#5
Johnny D

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Next time.
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#6
KW78

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This is the red cars fault, 10 out of 10 times!  

 

Look out the windshield of the black car as if you were driving, he doesn't change his line at all.  He is diagonalling from the bridge to the brake zone on the proper long brake zone, high HP line.  

 

The reason the video from the red car looks like the black car juked, is because the red car drove sharper over to edge and then had to not go into the grass, thinking he would stick his nose in there.  The video from the blue car shows this as well.

 

The red car was airborn from hitting the front of his front tire to the rear of the rear tire of car he is initiating a move on.   If I was the black car I would be pissed that he took that risk at 145+, and if the youtube comment is correct that this was qualifying, I would be extra pissed if I was the black car.  He had no presence beside the black car in time, and it is the overtaking car's responsibility to make a safe move.

 

Also, if I understand correctly, the red car should be faster than the black car, again showing the lesser driver is the red car, as his speed carrying abilities show in 1 and 3. The "training" value of the video should be learn to turn your car as well as have more top end.

 

It is kind of a BS video as well, as they sped up the first part of the footage for effect.

 

Still, not a bad result considering these cars have bolt in cages that aren't any better than the first bolt in cages in SSB or SM.

 

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Kyle


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#7
Tom Sager

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The black car's line before the crash was pointing toward the left side of the track, a line that is preached by many pro drivers as it is the shortest distance from turn 3 to 5, but it did look to me like the driver in the black nudged the wheel a tiny bit left to close that gap slightly and prevent the pass.  If the driver in the black car kept the wheel 100% straight, the red car would have run out of room on the left to make the pass IMO but maybe a bit further up the track.  

 

On the other hand and especially if this was qualifying - if you're the black car and you see things getting that tight, give the other driver a little room.  Could have ended very bad for the black car as well.  


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#8
Rob Burgoon

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I blame both drivers.  I think black checked the mirror, saw red, and tried to close the door too late.  Red was being wildly optimistic with the bend in the track approaching.


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#9
MPR22

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Come on now Ross. Just because NASA rules state that you need to be prepared to go 2 off to pass doesn't give you the right to break the other rules against blocking and intentionally causing a crash. The issue in the video wasn't a difference between 3/4 car width or full car width. It is an issue of sporstmanship and safety. And the real issue comes down to one of intent by the black car. Everyone might see signs that this was intentional and it might very well have been. And the officials will ultimately have to make a call whether it was or not. I have heard very few times where a driver stated that he purposely crashed someone. But at the end of the day it is still an issue of intent. If no maliciousness intended, a racing incident. Purposeful blocking; black would be suspended in my world.

Read the NASA rules carefully.  They do not penalize the lead driver for any move  as long as the passing driver has not placed his/her car far enough along side the lead car the lead car can move anywhere he/she wants on the track.  I have written about this for years, I have been penalized for passing and being hit by the lead driver that was in my opinion blocking on a fudging straightaway.  If they would add a small phrase then this would not happen, "the lead driver may not cause contact"  


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#10
MPR22

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This is the red cars fault, 10 out of 10 times!  

 

Look out the windshield of the black car as if you were driving, he doesn't change his line at all.  He is diagonalling from the bridge to the brake zone on the proper long brake zone, high HP line.  

 

The reason the video from the red car looks like the black car juked, is because the red car drove sharper over to edge and then had to not go into the grass, thinking he would stick his nose in there.  The video from the blue car shows this as well.

 

The red car was airborn from hitting the front of his front tire to the rear of the rear tire of car he is initiating a move on.   If I was the black car I would be pissed that he took that risk at 145+, and if the youtube comment is correct that this was qualifying, I would be extra pissed if I was the black car.  He had no presence beside the black car in time, and it is the overtaking car's responsibility to make a safe move.

 

Also, if I understand correctly, the red car should be faster than the black car, again showing the lesser driver is the red car, as his speed carrying abilities show in 1 and 3. The "training" value of the video should be learn to turn your car as well as have more top end.

 

It is kind of a BS video as well, as they sped up the first part of the footage for effect.

 

Still, not a bad result considering these cars have bolt in cages that aren't any better than the first bolt in cages in SSB or SM.

 

My 02,

Kyle

Kyle what the heck are you smoking.  The first part of the video is garbage and confusing.  

 

The Black car had the inferior line out of 3.  The black car should have committed to holding the inside line out of 3 on the way to 5.  He did slowly drift that way as the track meandered but he did not tell the following driver I am taking the inside by committing early.  He CLEARLY, watch the video frame by frame, turned into the red car at the last second.  

 

 

 

IF this was qualifying then these two were being idiots.  Neither was going to get their fast lap.  


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#11
Ron Alan

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Funny we are ripping on two Ferrari bozos and not one of our own to debate NASA passing rules  :)

 

As the rule is written...it is the passing cars fault(I'm assuming no obvious blocking move). But i'm with Michael on not giving the lead car quite so much control. 

 

Basically requiring the passing car to avoid contact by leaving the racing surface to complete a pass makes the lead car far to powerful.

Its one thing when a passing car knows they may drop wheels, but being force into a wall or tires creates a no win situation. Most wont purposely do this. But sometimes spacial awareness is lacking in some drivers and then NASA gives them an out by not putting any responsibility on them.

 

I had a driver complain awhile back about a lead driver taking away an apex when he felt he had overlap. My response was "read the rules". His response was "well, its a dick move". My response was "how can it be a dick move if its legal?

 

In SCCA...with its racing room rules...it would seem the opposite happens. The rear car gets overlap, often way to late, ends up pitting the lead car and often the car that spun gets the blame.

 

Pick you poison... 


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#12
Todd Green

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Read the NASA rules carefully.  They do not penalize the lead driver for any move  as long as the passing driver has not placed his/her car far enough along side the lead car the lead car can move anywhere he/she wants on the track.

If you mean "any one move" then I agree, but the rule states that the leading car cannot block as soon as there is overlap (and not when the wheel is by the driver):

 


25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The
overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking.
A
driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be
black-flagged and/or penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper
overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper.

 

Now the problem is that the rules are written such that the leading driver gets one move and by the rules can run the overtaking car 2 wheels into the dirt (as you said earlier).  IMO that has to be the most stupid rule ever written and has no place in (club) racing.  Who cares that they later try to clarify it by saying "well we really don't intend for you to do this."  Just write the damn rule saying you have to leave a car-width plus an inch (or whatever.)  Also define if curbs are part of the racing surface.  We have some curbs that are more than a car-width wide at MMP, but they are so rough that if you get pushed on them you'll definitely lose a position (and possibly some fillings from your teeth.)  People know this and abuse it.

 

I imagine this rule came about due to the trailing car trying to stuff it in the corner and then claiming the lead car shut the door.  It comes down to the basic rule in life: don't be a jerk.  If someone gets a run on you, give them racing room and learn to get off the corner better.  If you didn't get enough of a run on someone, don't poke your nose in expecting them to part the red seas for you.


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#13
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https://nasa-assets..../282/2015.3.pdf

 

pages 83-94 cover just about any situation! Always worth a reread if its been awhile...

 

I like SCCA racing room and I like NASA forcing rear car to be smart! 


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#14
mdavis

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Been there done that.  Got blocked with a big run into 5 on the inside, so went outside and got wrecked.  I was blamed.

 

Pretty sure that's also where Drago punted Stearns in a runoffs deal.

 

There ought to be some specific rule for that turn at that track.


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#15
Todd Green

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https://nasa-assets..../282/2015.3.pdf

 

pages 83-94 cover just about any situation! Always worth a reread if its been awhile...

 

And what some of us are saying is that Figure 4 probably isn't the best rule for the long term heath of club racing.  Anything that says, "The driver of Car B should not have attempted to make that pass if he/she was not willing to drive into the dirt to avoid collision." is just ludicrous in my book.  I'll never drive someone off the track and probably won't be sending Xmas cards to someone who does that to me. ;)


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