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Engine got hot, now won't start

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#1
BlueJay73

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My brand new KoyoRad radiator got a hole in it.  Am I lucky or what!

Was racing, when I noticed the temp gauge was pegged at HOT (because a lot of the coolant-WaterWetter- leaked out).

Came off the track slowly, but under power.

When I got to the paddock, engine killed.

It wouldn't start, and it wouldn't push start by popping the clutch either.

Got it home. Filled radiator with water, cranked engine, located jet of water coming out of front of radiator.

IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S ABOUT TO CATCH AND START, BUT WON'T.

Pulled plugs, no fouling or wet plugs.

Can't see anything leaking under engine (other than radiator).

It's got gas.

Can excessive heat kill the spark plug coil packs?

Any ideas, anybody?

 

Jim



#2
FTodaro

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Any water in oil. I would pull a plug put it in the plug wire, ground it and crank it see if it sparks, if you have spark, then i would to a compression test, looking for a warped head, cracked block, if you smell gas while cranking and have spark then I am not sure what you have going on.


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#3
MPR22

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Check compression. Most likely you cooked the rings and lost compression.
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#4
davew

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Diagnose, do not guess. You need 4 things to make an engine run; fuel, air, spark and compression. At the correct time.

 

Use a spark tester to check for spark

use a pressure gauge to check for fuel delivery. Use a noid light to check for electronic signal to the injectors.

Use a compression gauge to check compression. Then a leakdown tester to diagnose low compression (if applicable)

 

One quick check, does the engine crank at normal speed and smooth. A faster than normal crank speed indicates compression loss on more than one cylinder. An uneven crank speed indicates compression loss on one cylinder. But do a compression and leakdown test BEFORE tearing anything apart.

 

dave


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#5
Keith Novak

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I once sucked a bird into the radiator at about 110 mph.  Half a lap later piston #4 scattered across the track.  Although they happened almost at the same time, after much head scratching there was no real reason to conclude the bird blew up my engine.  (It was a very unlucky lap though.)  The moral being, just because problem 2 immediately follows problem 1, it's not always safe to assume they are related.


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#6
Tom Sager

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I once sucked a bird into the radiator at about 110 mph.  Half a lap later piston #4 scattered across the track.  Although they happened almost at the same time, after much head scratching there was no real reason to conclude the bird blew up my engine.  (It was a very unlucky lap though.)  The moral being, just because problem 2 immediately follows problem 1, it's not always safe to assume they are related.

You could be right.  I don't think a Miata cylinder head can withstand being overheated for anything more than a very short time before it warps and/or cracks.  A pegged gauge is probably 250+ degrees?  Unfortunately that seems like the likely problem and the heads usually can't be saved after getting hot.  I had a hose go several years ago and was off the track in less than 2 minutes from when the hose let loose and the head was junk and the car wouldn't run.  


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#7
Steve Scheifler

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Even if you can get it flat within the thickness rule, you may find that the cam journals need to be align bored and the valve seats are slightly out of plane requiring all of them be cut or replaced. Not that it isn't worth a look, but simply shaving the bottom flat isn't necessarily enough.

Compression has to be pretty low to not fire at all. I don't think I've ever seen rings get hot enough in one shot to do that, more likely by then the cylinders and pistons are also scored. But it's possible. Add that to the cranking check, if it cranks slowly with a good battery, get a bore scope and look for scoring. If all the valves are failing to seat due to head warp that will do it. I've seen that cause leaks bad enough a Whistler couldn't even get a reading.
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#8
MPR22

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Even if you can get it flat within the thickness rule, you may find that the cam journals need to be align bored and the valve seats are slightly out of plane requiring all of them be cut or replaced. Not that it isn't worth a look, but simply shaving the bottom flat isn't necessarily enough.

Compression has to be pretty low to not fire at all. I don't think I've ever seen rings get hot enough in one shot to do that, more likely by then the cylinders and pistons are also scored. But it's possible. Add that to the cranking check, if it cranks slowly with a good battery, get a bore scope and look for scoring. If all the valves are failing to seat due to head warp that will do it. I've seen that cause leaks bad enough a Whistler couldn't even get a reading.

I have seen it happen on multiple occasions, the rings don't like being cooked.  


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#9
Steve Scheifler

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I'll take your word for it. We've got one that was pretty hot and it had me worried, but haven't had time for a leakdown or the dyno since. Now I either have a lot of time, or none at all, not sure which yet.
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#10
MPR22

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I'll take your word for it. We've got one that was pretty hot and it had me worried, but haven't had time for a leakdown or the dyno since. Now I either have a lot of time, or none at all, not sure which yet.

You are back in racing, You have NO time you need to get it fixed and go race.  


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#11
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You are back in racing, You have NO time you need to get it fixed and go race.  

Brothers Scheifler, get at it, we have a double at the Farm Aug, 15th and 16th.


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#12
BlueJay73

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Compression is found to be very low; 100--50--50--100.

Will remove the head and go from there.

Coolant is not milky. Oil is not milky. Got spark. Can smell gas.

It just occurred to me that oil temp gauge was normal, even though water temp was hot, so maybe I caught it quick enough to limit damage.

Will report results.

 

Jim



#13
Steve Scheifler

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Water gets hot a LOT faster so don't get your hopes up. If at all possible get a leakdown tester (and help using it if unfamiliar) and check that first, or after manifolds come off but before the head does. That will tell you if compression loss is mostly past rings, or valves, head gasket to adjacent cylinder, or worse.
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#14
Steve Scheifler

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If you did the compression test with all plugs out, it might be interesting to put a plug back in #2 and test 3 or vice versa to see if there is a leak between them.
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#15
Keith Novak

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Water gets hot a LOT faster so don't get your hopes up. If at all possible get a leakdown tester (and help using it if unfamiliar) and check that first, or after manifolds come off but before the head does. That will tell you if compression loss is mostly past rings, or valves, head gasket to adjacent cylinder, or worse.

Will you even get results that tell you anything with a cold engine?  Last time I tried a leak-down on a fairly new motor without warming it up first, it leaked like a sieve from everywhere.  After warming it up, I had pretty good numbers.


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#16
davew

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Warming the engine will only effect the ring leakage numbers. The valves are either sealed or not sealed. Temp does not effect them.

 

Jim, you really need to do a leakdown test BEFORE you pull the head. This way you know if the valves are the issue or the rings. Or both.  Do you really want to pull the head, fix that problem, only to have to pull the engine apart a second time if the rings are bad.

 

If the leakage is from the valves, check the valve lash before it all comes apart. You may have overheated the valves causing them to suck up into the head.

 

As I said earlier, diagnose first. Don't just guess or rely on internet advise. Just because some yahoo on the internet (me included) says something, you are ultimately the one doing the work and spending the money.

 

dave


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#17
BlueJay73

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Thanks for the advice, all.



#18
Johnny D

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After all this, make sure your rock thru the rad issue is fixed or you'll be back here again.

Do you have the screen in front or know how it happened?
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#19
BlueJay73

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Will definitely have a screen over the new radiator!

Will also get a temperature warning light.

I do not know when it happened. There were no obvious times when I went through a hail of gravel.

 

I'm trying to look for a positive side of this.

I did put a screen over the radiator of my expensive DE car, and I've not had this happen to it.

I'd rather hole the radiator in my SM than my DE car.

Well, it is what it is... .

Fix it and move on. I'm not the first.



#20
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Low pressure sensor will offer a quicker failure mode than the temp gauge.
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