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SCCA Runoffs and NASA Champs pros and cons of both opinions

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#1
Jim Drago

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Figured I would start a discussion of pros and cons of both organization..

 

 

 

NASA  pros

Short weekend

condensed format with little dead time

fair amount of track time 

Seems more laid back atmosphere

Use of dyno post race to compare cars

 

NASA Cons

Qualifying races are short and can lead to over aggression and contact

split championship, no longer a single national champion

in general lack of the same level of competition as runoffs

not much invasive tech ( none this year)

In last few years since the split, smaller car counts

 

SCCA pros 

Considered by many the hardest to win and the biggest prize in amateur Motorsports

Competition level

Car count

Invasive post race tear downs

 

SCCA Cons

way too long of an event

lack of track time for time and financial committee made

the event is usually a pressure cooker and not very laid back all


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#2
Jim Drago

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 I feel there was an injustice to the competitors who raced at Nasa Champs this weekend. If you are going to have a "championship" event, you have to have invasive tear down IMO. Post race tech validates the win for those who have spent thousands of dollars and countless time and effort to do well. It also leaves those who didn't finish in the top 5-6 the confidence that they were beaten fairly and within the rules.  I realize the cars were dynoed and they were within an acceptable level. I have a hard time understanding how/why the decision of if tear downs should occur was left to the competitors. If I had won that race, I certainly would not want to torn down, what is there to gain?  There may be questions about other cars as well which is not fair to them as they were ready, willing and able to have their cars inspected. But were not asked. It really seems that NASA wants a dyno based SM class, if that is what they want, they should just implement it. 

 

I think we are starting to see a further divide in NASA/SCCA.. The NASA Champs IMO was at its closest to Runoffs win in 07/08 at Mid Ohio and has not been the same since it moved out to Miller.  If I could only win one. I would rather have an ARRC win on my resume than NASA east/west champs title. In all fairness, ARRC title is the only one of my racing goals that I have not accomplished. Personally unless NASA heads to COTA or another one of my most favorite tracks, I wont be back for another NASA Champs. Some really good people at NASA, unfortunately my ideals of amateur racing are a better fit with SCCA.

 

 

Jim


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#3
Caveman-kwebb99

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Pretty simple to me really we just had the June sprints where everyone was ready for a serious teardown, two infractions were found during teardown and dq's were handed out and parts confiscated by the scca...

Of course nobody would have anything illegal knowingly or otherwise at the west coast championships... Where the track record of NASA history shows little in the way of invasive tech.

I couldn't car less if all cars are similar on the dyno if you have the same or more hp as me good for you. For me its all in what you do to get it, I have done everything in my power to assure that my car is legit, and while a teardown sucks I am not afraid to have my exam. But it is so easy to take the little shortcuts to get the hp. Hogged out rp? Already found this year! Shrouded valves? Already found! Compression bumped up? Already found!

Only scca finds any of these infractions because they made a commitment to clean up the class for good or bad they have put their money where their mouth was! I applaud them for that!

This is just another reason for me to stick strictly with scca, well I don't know Williams seems to think it's only because scca doesn't have a sin bin ;)

I just find it sad that NASA thinks that pte and sm are the same thing and just get to a dyno number any old way you want and we are good... Not good for the class and certainly not a good probing ground for our young teen Mazda drivers. I have had the please to race with some good young drivers this season in scca and I think those drivers have made the best choice to race where they as well as their competitors will be held accountable!

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#4
Rob Burgoon

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I have a hard time understanding how/why the decision of if tear downs should occur was left to the competitors. If I had won that race, I certainly would not want to torn down, what is there to gain?  There may be questions about other cars as well which is not fair to them as they were ready, willing and able to have their cars inspected. But were not asked. It really seems that NASA wants a dyno based SM class, if that is what they want, they should just implement it. 

 

 

 

 

There's a big difference between using the dyno as a non intrusive tech tool and having a dyno based SM class.

 

That's quite a leap you're making.

 

<speculation>

NASA tends to listen to what the drivers want.  I'm guessing there was little to no grousing about power compliance of any cars, and the top cluster of drivers seem happy.  My bet is the race looked fine, nobody noticed "outliers" and the cars dyno'd reasonably, so John shrugged and said "why waste everyone's time with engine teardowns if everyone is happy?" 

 

If the drivers in the back wanted a random front runner torn down, they could have asked a NASA official to pick one of the top 5 to tear down they might well have done it, no charge.

</speculation>

 

Unless you have one shop sweeping the top 4, then yeah, all 4 saying no tear down could be cause for concern.


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#5
Todd Lamb

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So NASA DQ'ed my client this weekend because we took tire pressures after he came off track. Just to put that out there.

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#6
Rob Burgoon

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So NASA DQ'ed my client this weekend because we took tire pressures after he came off track. Just to put that out there.

 

Did he fail to report directly to impound?

 

Also, did he miss a driver's meeting by any chance?


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#7
Jamz14

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Typically you cannot touch the car ( including temps and pressure ) after qualifying and races without asking and granting of permission to do so. This was waived during the drivers meeting except for Sunday I believe. Something else I suspect was going on and why the dq.
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#8
Todd Lamb

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No and no, he was DQ for "crew working on car".

Did he fail to report directly to impound?

Also, did he miss a driver's meeting by any chance?


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#9
john mueller

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So NASA DQ'ed my client this weekend because we took tire pressures after he came off track. Just to put that out there.

 

At the Western Champs in SM??  If that happened it's news to me or you're not getting the real story as we didn't have ant DQs in SM, just a few re-positions.


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#10
Duane Polsley

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I remember a guy named Sammy that had illegal shocks and ran away from the competitors. His car dyno'd right in-line with all others.


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#11
Rob Burgoon

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I remember a guy named Sammy that had illegal shocks and ran away from the competitors. His car dyno'd right in-line with all others.

 

I'm sure tearing the engine apart would have sorted that right out.


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#12
Jim Drago

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It was at Atlanta with Tire pressures this weekend.

 

 

It is safe to say that no one was complaining at Homestead, June Sprints and a fe other races where cars were dq'ed. Drivers feeling good and about parity level should not be a much of a determining factor for tech levels at championship event.


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Duane Polsley

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I'm sure tearing the engine apart would have sorted that right out.

 

Invasive tech would have though. In Sammy's case they never got into his engine as he failed the shock dyno test no need to go any further!


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Caveman-kwebb99

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nasa doesnt listen to drivers, drivers do not request multiple early morning meetings etc...

 

this has nothing to do with tech rob and you know it.  

 

If your in love with nasa sobeit...  

 

 

Tech should be done it shouldnt be up for a vote by those in the top 5.  maybe ask the bottom 5 next time i bet shit comes apart


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Rob Burgoon

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It was at Atlanta with Tire pressures this weekend.

 

 

It is safe to say that no one was complaining at Homestead, June Sprints and a fe other races where cars were dq'ed. Drivers feeling good and about parity level should not be a much of a determining factor for tech levels at championship event.

 

As for Sammy.. a few weeks after being on the podium at NASA Champs he was Dq'ed at the Runoffs.. So something worked

 

How far out of compliance were those cars?  Where did they finish?  Totally possible to have a non-compliant car that is no advantage.


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Rob Burgoon

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nasa doesnt listen to drivers, drivers do not request multiple early morning meetings etc...

 

this has nothing to do with tech rob and you know it.  

 

If your in love with nasa sobeit...  

 

 

Tech should be done it shouldnt be up for a vote by those in the top 5.  maybe ask the bottom 5 next time i bet shit comes apart

 

NASA varies by region and you know that.  I've never had a single early morning driver's meeting for SM.


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#17
Caveman-kwebb99

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NASA varies by region and you know that.  I've never had a single early morning driver's meeting for SM.

 

 

Ok well mcdonalds is different in every state also... mcrib is quite good btw.  isnt nasa a fanchise maybe not well run it seems...

 

If i would have won I would have said tear me down!  I would want everyone there to never be able to say well he didnt get torn down so maybe he dint really deserve it


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#18
Jim Drago

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How far out of compliance were those cars?  Where did they finish?  Totally possible to have a non-compliant car that is no advantage.

There was no performance advantage for any at Homestead, but they were in violation of the rule. They were 1-2 or close, definitely on the podium( one was one of mine even) It is not the job of tech steward to determine intent,  just measure and report. If over.. your out.  Many cheat intentionally that gives them no benefit, some make the cars even worse.. That is not for tech to determine.. Certainly not for tech to ignore.. But  then again, if you don't even look.. Hard to find anything?


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#19
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Well I hate saying any thing because I'll be getting all my stuff back in a box . First off i work very hard to be legal , and I'm not saying any one isn't ! But at a Western State Championship Race with money involved Nor Cal. points etc. you got to be kidding me leave it up to the racers. At Fontana this year tech was a issue, motors were all over the place when whistled ?

That kind of went under the carpet and that was just a regional race. Before this race i had our nor cal. Nasa spec miata director go over my car and he found stuff i was not a wear of that i changed ( windshield washer bottle was missing, wiring issue, ect. ) He said at that race when $ is involved it's got to be right this isn't regional race any more. Were ex go karters and i never have seen the tech guys say go a head racers you make the call.


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Tom Sager

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Long time in SCCA for me.  Attended 1 NASA Championship event at Mid-Ohio in 2011.  Very well run event and I really like the qualifying races format.  The entire field went to tech after every session and that had the potential of being a nightmare while 40 cars were checked for even small things.  Mike Collins and Glen absolutely kicked ass through that process and had us out of there very quickly and the dyno sessions were done very quickly as well.  I hope to do another NASA Championship event soon but traveling a long distance to do that or a Runoffs not to my liking due to the extra time and expense. Especially the time.  

 

Most of the Runoffs I've attended have also been run very well with the week or more time commitment being the negative.  The high level of competition at these events makes it a huge challenge and very rewarding if you do well.  In our class you have to compete against what I consider pro teams at the Runoffs and many majors events.  They might not call themselves that but they every bit as well prepared and well funded as some pro teams in other series.  Makes it tougher for those that work all week on something other than cars.  


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