96 replies to this topic

[john mueller]

 

Yes p7 did receive tech.. He was whistled and a few post post qualifying items checked and all passed.  Had he failed any of those or been suspicious, he would have lost times and or been dq'ed. Post race, they impound 7 cars.. no one expected all six to be dq'ed.. despite popular opinion P7 would have passed the tear down as well.. Even on STR.. whether you believe that or not doesn't really matter, b/c STR would not have been looked at in that car as it was not under protest. So  100%  the 2014 Champ would have passed the tear down. Ironically, he would have sailed through NASA 2015 tech as well, but so would have the top 6

 

If you feel I am attacking or getting pissed off. No need to respond. That is not my intent. I will just drop it.  I thought we were having a discussion and didnt think I was hitting a nerve, Trying to understand the reasoning of why if you had suspicions about a car and it would have come apart if it finished top four  was it not looked at regardless of its finishing position? You know I am big random tech and not always getting the top 3 guys. To me, if a car comes in and is "suspicious" , it should be looked at regardless of finishing position.  If you care to shed some light, great. If you don't, that is fine too.  We can disagree on the decisions made  and the process with neither being right or wrong. Not sure either is, just a difference of opinion. DIdnt think I was being snarky. 

 

My comment was snarky, not yours...     I'm glad P7 was tech'd last year, I was not aware that it had been and rumors are just that.

 

The 01 you're questioning was looked at pre dyno on Saturday, suspension inspection, weight & plate and ECU sealed into the car.

[Parity]

I see both sides of this. Seems like arbitrary decisions to some and Monday morning quarterbacking to others. Someone mentioned a "tech plan" which I think is a great idea. Perhaps a tech decision tree that provides a logical flow can be published so competitors know what to expect and prepare for. Also the tech director can get some sleep on Saturday night not having to wrestle with tough decisions.

[tony senese]

John Mueller, one of the classiest and most thorough SM directors I know, you did a great job and made great decisions, you always have.  I am totally happy with all the decisions you made for us and just pissed you beat me again!!!!!

 

NASA is fun to race with, period.  SCCA might be more professional, and maybe the tech catches more cheaters, but I hear WAAAAY more talk at SCCA races about who is cheating and why they aren't deserving and how this class is going to the SH*&^TER.

 

I'm just saying, I think all 33 of us at MRLS this weekend had tons of fun and were glad we came to race with NASA.... even those of us who hauled our car 3200 miles to do it and killed our tow vehicle.... OOPS>>>

[john mueller]

I see both sides of this. Seems like arbitrary decisions to some and Monday morning quarterbacking to others. Someone mentioned a "tech plan" which I think is a great idea. Perhaps a tech decision tree that provides a logical flow can be published so competitors know what to expect and prepare for. Also the tech director can get some sleep on Saturday night not having to wrestle with tough decisions.

 

I see where you're going here and appreciate it but no way anything would ever be published pre-event.  I want the competitors to be prepared to take the car home in boxes - Or basically be ready for anything and in this case for going home early with a running car.

 

I'll be honest I was intending on weighing crankshafts...  I had zero anticipation that the cars would be so close (dyno) and that the aura in the paddock would be so pleasant.  It was a welcome change from the normal intensity of a championship event.

[KW78]

I could write a book as a response to this thread but as we are leaving in a little bit to travel to miller, I can't take the time.    Here are several one liners about things that I would be happy to follow up with discussions or video.

 

Thanks to JMueller and others for a good event.

 

There were several GREAT things about this event.

 

There were several UNPROFESSIONAL as hell things about the administration of the event. 

 

John, you are inaccurate about stating there was no contact.  My customer in SM had contact several times and filled out body contact sheets.  NO ACTIONS OR FOLLOW UP we could see from the appropriate people.  WE FOLLOWED up multiple times.

 

We felt #25 should have been suspended for the sunday race.  NO actions gives us cause to wonder about NASA policies.

 

THIS CLASS HAS TO STOP WORRYING ABOUT THIS +/- 2 OR 4 HP, IT IS WAY DOWN THE TOTEM POLE OF WHAT DOMINATES LAP TIME.  It is time for a working sonic restrictor so we can stop with the +/- crap and ALL THE $$$$$$$$$$$$  this is costing people to feel like it is worth racing in this class.

 

HP anecdotes:  We fielded 3 cars.  One was Spec944 and 2 SM.  We won SPec944 again and consolodated the east and west championships at least for a few weeks.  

 

We killed the field in S944 and was told blatently we must be cheating by NASA  We dyno'd over the rules by 1.5HP (141.5) and was put to the back of the results for Q1race.  (We paid for and tuned on the same dyno the day before to 139, and do not understand the change)   This made us start in the rear of a 12 car field on sunday.   My driver drove thru the field and won anyway.  2nd place was now a bit of a challenge but not by Spec miata standards at all.  He now dyno'd +4 over rules and was DQ'd as I understand it (well after we were loaded and left however).  We DETUNED OUR 944 PLUS THEN SOME SAFETY MARGIN, and it dyno'd post race at 127 - 14 HP DOWN OVER DAY BEFORE.  Our lap times were in the same quarter of a second according to data (will check on official results ).  IT IS IN THE DRIVING !!

 

 

MIATA hp:  Laguna is a bucket list item for me and this was my first time there.  Didn't have time to IRace, and could only watch videos as prep.  I was dissapointed to not be competitive, but did continue getting faster thru sunday to a 1:48.1 which I feel OK with.  I overheated my motor 1 race ago locally and had no time to do anything about it.  I paid for my own compliance dyno check immediately after the race (while still in my drivers suit) (tech didn't keep me for 19th) and was 10-12 hp down from the leader dyno sheets.  I beat people that could out pull me up the hill, and I lost to people I had more power than and could close on at will.  IT IS IN THE DRIVING!!  

 

I loved the post race tech plan.  It worked for me.

 

IF NASA REALLY WANT'S TO KEEP THE TECH DOWN, THE PEOPLE COMING BACK, AND PEOPLE FEELING THAT THEY DIDN'T LOSE TO CHEATERS I SUGGEST 2 MAJOR ITEMS:

 

1)  Worked out sonic restrictor that makes even cheater cams irrelevant (AND cheater ECMs and all other black R&D)

 

2) most everyone running a national program, and certainly those working hard on a national program, is running data.  Put traqmate data in the top cars (as I believe was done) and PUBLISH IT DURING THE EVENT AND IMMEDIATELY AFTER.  SHOW the world how the lap times really are corner entrance and exit speeds.

 

ok must go, maybe more this weekend including video incidents I am talking about above.

 

Kyle

 

 

 

 

 

[Jamz14]

Just out of curiosity KW, why would you need a dyno compliance check in SM? Who gives a shit what the dyno sheet says if your in compliance seeing how we are not a dyno class? If the dyno showed great numbers and you were inspected; as long as you are rule compliant your dyno sheet could show 150HP and you are still going home without being DQed.

[KW78]

Just out of curiosity KW, why would you need a dyno compliance check in SM? Who gives a shit what the dyno sheet says if your in compliance seeing how we are not a dyno class? If the dyno showed great numbers and you were inspected; as long as you are rule compliant your dyno sheet could show 150HP and you are still going home without being DQed.

 

Your dyno choice was a compliance check for $80 which was 3 consistent pulls (mine were within .4hp) and no tuning, or a tuning dyno run for $150.  I didn't want to tune, just know where I was at.  And BTW we ARE a dyno class.  The rules are trying to keep the end result of the collection of parts under the hood to be a performance envelope that then entire class is in.  The DYNO is the way NASA is measuring the performance window, and at least in this case, deciding the parts under the hood are less relevant than the results that all of the top 5 are in the acceptable performance window.  

 

This is the only reasonable and perpetuating way to proceed in amateur racing for the future of SM, IMO.

 

But what we really should be asking is who gives a shit if all the cars are 125 hp whether there is a cold air intake, cams, computer or compression in this class.  If you want to race the guy next to you with the same power curve and you have the same power curve, why even open the hood?!  If you want to play "gotchya" by protesting that there is no washer bottle and rules are rules, then that is a waste of time - and by the same token everyone is illegal because there was a spec washer bottle level as it left the factory.  1 drop plus or minus and you are non compliant, because rules are rules - or are we going to stop at some arbitrary point like we have been doing...??

 

Kyle

[Jamz14]

Kyle, we are not a dyno class. Dynos are used in NASA SM as a tool in order to decide to go further or not. You are never DQed in NASA that I am aware of in SM over a dyno result. You are DQed based on being out of rule compliance.

 

I actually agree with you on stuff like the sonic restrictor. But whether you and I want it is irrelevant. But maybe what we really should be asking is why others do not want it. Not in order to formulate some smooth argument to convince them they do. But to understand the motivation of our competitors and hopefully that give us insights in to how they achieve their performance advantages so we can achieve them too.

[Steve Scheifler]

Kyle, No doubt a lot (most?) people overestimate the difference a few HP make, but I think you underestimate it. Between cars/drivers that are running within a couple tenths, however they get there, just a few HP can be decisive. So for someone trailing by a second per minute, the difference won't take them to the front, but it can be the difference between them and their closest competition. Is driving skill and execution the biggest factor overall? Of course, that's what many of us like most about this class, but also precisely why equal power, "legal" suspensions, etc are all the more important. Those of us willing to know the truth about our driving want to know it really is the difference, and that requires rule enforcement.

[Johnny D]

There's another part I'll touch on.

For some this is an engineering exercise, A-B-A with every part of the car and every combination or every setting. There is no "Top prepped" car because there's always someplace, somewhere there may be a place to squeeze more. You get into the grey area's, you read the rule carefully and try to catch every little word that may let you do something to gain an advantage, watch tech, watch competitors, test, tune, and make yourself the best you can be. They've work hard to figure things out, they don't want it even, they want to dominate, let the other guy figure it out.

 

Some do all, some only touch on a few of these, some just follow along and do monkey see, monkey do.

 

There's a spectrum of drivers with and without, $, skill, intelligence, drive, endurance, to name a few and all clubs try to cater to a part of it.

It's all what you're looking for and trying to achieve.

J~

[Rob Burgoon]

I don't crave the 2 hp for the faster lap time,  I want it to get my nose just a little further alongside to make passes easier.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Kyle, No doubt a lot (most?) people overestimate the difference a few HP make, but I think you underestimate it. Between cars/drivers that are running within a couple tenths, however they get there, just a few HP can be decisive. So for someone trailing by a second per minute, the difference won't take them to the front, but it can be the difference between them and their closest competition. Is driving skill and execution the biggest factor overall? Of course, that's what many of us like most about this class, but also precisely why equal power, "legal" suspensions, etc are all the more important. Those of us willing to know the truth about our driving want to know it really is the difference, and that requires rule enforcement.

Couldn't say it better! Exactly why tech is needed

[Johnny D]

Couldn't say it better! Exactly why tech is needed

Didn't you knock your alignment out on the gator strips at Road America Majors, but still came back for the win.
That was all you.
J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Didn't you knock your alignment out on the gator strips at Road America Majors, but still came back for the win.That was all you.J~

Yes it was me and I'm sure I drove very well the whole weekend, but my competitors deserved to know that the car was legal... It just wasn't the weekend that the tech guru was on site or I'm sure it would have come apart and would have gladly with a big smile pulled it apart.

[Johnny D]

I understand.

This isn't the first time SM was looking for a certain level of tech and SCCA not providing.

Maybe SCCA thinks like NASA but just haven't told you yet.

Or they think you guys should work out your trust issues between one another.

 

Great drive, none the less,

J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Try leaving all the candy in a bowl at your front door asking the kids to only take one at Halloween. Check the bowl every 10 minutes and see how long it takes before some takes the whole bowl full...

And then since you want to trust everyone just refill the bowl as needed throughout the trucker treat time

[Johnny D]

Men and children with issues, something in the water maybe.

Evil Mennonites, huh ?

 

I shook a lot of hands in Ohio, Good thing I had all my fingers when I left.

J~