Jump to content

Photo

T & S Line before Pit In in Qual ?

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 6,121 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

I was watching Indy at Mid-O and they did this. (Just got back in town)

I thought this would be a great way to reduce time like at Road America.

 

Has it been done?

How hard is it to do ?

Long cable, wireless ?

 

J~

 


2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#2
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,508 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14
Was the T&S line on the back straight? At Mid Ohio during the SCCA Runoffs the green is dropped on the back straight and the checkered is dropped on the front.
Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#3
LarryKing

LarryKing

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,659 posts

Didn't see Indy qually, maybe they used their own timing equipment. The track T&S line is at the pit straight flag stand, post pit in.


2017 - SMSE SEDiv ECR Champion
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#4
Dave Cox

Dave Cox

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 45 posts
  • Location:Pleasant Prairie, WI
  • Region:Blackhawk Valley
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:23

Road America timing line used to be in turn 14 (forget if it was turn in or track out), but I do not recall ever receiving the checker and heading straight into the pit lane. 



#5
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 6,121 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

The idea was to use this at any track, longer track seems to work better, but only use it in Qual, 

So the cars didn't have to drive around the whole track after they took the final lap/flag, saving time so the next group could come out.

Couples minutes a group ? Longer race, another lap to Qual, IDK.

Just saying.

J~


2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#6
Peter Olivola

Peter Olivola

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 180 posts

Doesn't make a significant difference.  When the timing line (not the scoring line) at Road America was at the exit of T14 it just meant when you took the checker at S/F you were still on a qualifying lap.  The location made for some interesting last lap lines through the turn and resulted in more spins there than during the race.  The difference between a qualifying lap and a cool down lap at RA is about a minute.  At a shorter track it wouldn't be worth budgeting in the schedule.

 

 

 

The idea was to use this at any track, longer track seems to work better, but only use it in Qual, 

So the cars didn't have to drive around the whole track after they took the final lap/flag, saving time so the next group could come out.

Couples minutes a group ? Longer race, another lap to Qual, IDK.

Just saying.

J~


  • Johnny D likes this

#7
davew

davew

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Location:Beloit, Wi
  • Region:Chicago
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:72

At Mid Ohio, they had the timing line on the straight before the carosel/pit entrance. It probably worked well at saving time.

 

Back in the hand held T&S days, at Road America, the timing line was in the braking zone for turn 14. There used to be a little blue building behind the T14 corner station for T&S. Mostly the pro guys abused it. They would enter T14 at full speed, not even try to make the turn and end up in the gravel trap. With the building of the current "officials building" at start finish line, timing was moved to the front straight.


Dave Wheeler
Advanced Autosports, the nations most complete Spec Miata shop
Author, Spec Miata Constructors Guide, version 1 and 2.0

Building Championship winning cars since 1995

4 time Central Division Spec Miata Champion car builder 2012-2013-2014-2017

Back to Back June Sprints Spec Miata 1-2 finishes 2016 and 2017

5 time June Sprints winner in Mazda's

6 Time Northern Conference Champion Car Builder

2014 SCCA Majors National point Champion car builder

2014 SCCA Runoffs winner, T4 (Bender)

2014 Central Division Champion, ITS (Wheeler)

2013 Thunderhill 25 hour winning crew chief

2007 June Sprints winner, (GT1, Mohrhauser)

Over 200 race wins and counting.
www.advanced-autosports.com
dave@advanced-autosports.com
608-313-1230

Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#8
MPR22

MPR22

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,138 posts
  • Location:Houston
  • Region:Southwest
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:22
Along this theme I was involved in a race this year were I crossed SF line first but T/S showed me about .012 seconds behind. NASA race, I was awarded 2nd place. I suspect this happens more often than we think. I was under the impression the car that crossed the finish line first wins. It appears T/S data is used by some organizations.
Shattering - For those who cant drink tequila NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner Majors Winner - Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Donor - Made PayPal donation

#9
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

Doesn't make a significant difference.  When the timing line (not the scoring line) at Road America was at the exit of T14 it just meant when you took the checker at S/F you were still on a qualifying lap.  The location made for some interesting last lap lines through the turn and resulted in more spins there than during the race.  The difference between a qualifying lap and a cool down lap at RA is about a minute.  At a shorter track it wouldn't be worth budgeting in the schedule.

 

Your math doesn't sound right.

 

22 min session, 4 minute laps, 5 min warmup/cooldown:

SF timing, 3 timed laps, 18 min session:

outlap 0:00

hotlap 0:05

hotlap 0:09

hotlap 0:13

cooldown 0:17

pit in 0:22

 

3/4 lap timing Assumes large paddock with room for cooling brakes, 4 min to do 3/4 of lap during warmup, 1 min to come in.

3/4 outlap 0:00

hotlap 0:04

hotlap 0:08

hotlap 0:12

pit in: 0:17

 

 

You'll need to add time for the rest of the field to go out and be collected, but I think I made my point.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#10
davew

davew

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Location:Beloit, Wi
  • Region:Chicago
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:72

In theory, finishing position is supposed to be judged by sight. Not based on transponder. As transponder placement (front of car versus back of car) can make the electronic system give a false reading. But it does not always happen that way.

 

At Grattan, the timing line (and thus the start/finish line) is about 100 feet before the starters stand. The finish is judged by the stewards in the tower (which lines up with the timing line) and not by the starter.

 

dave


Dave Wheeler
Advanced Autosports, the nations most complete Spec Miata shop
Author, Spec Miata Constructors Guide, version 1 and 2.0

Building Championship winning cars since 1995

4 time Central Division Spec Miata Champion car builder 2012-2013-2014-2017

Back to Back June Sprints Spec Miata 1-2 finishes 2016 and 2017

5 time June Sprints winner in Mazda's

6 Time Northern Conference Champion Car Builder

2014 SCCA Majors National point Champion car builder

2014 SCCA Runoffs winner, T4 (Bender)

2014 Central Division Champion, ITS (Wheeler)

2013 Thunderhill 25 hour winning crew chief

2007 June Sprints winner, (GT1, Mohrhauser)

Over 200 race wins and counting.
www.advanced-autosports.com
dave@advanced-autosports.com
608-313-1230

Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#11
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 6,121 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

Dave, I was only suggesting doing this in Qual to reduce time of a cool down lap after taking the final Qual flag. (get the cars off track asap)

 

I assume from your "finishing position" you're talking race.

 

Peter didn't think it was worth the time to adjust.

 

Rob's math suggested there may be a bigger benefit.

J~


2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#12
LarryKing

LarryKing

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,659 posts

'nother one of them NASA vs. SCCA thangs.

 

If NASA says a session/race is 30 minutes, then it's exactly 30 minutes from the time cars roll on track until the time they roll off, whether the race last 15 laps or 3 laps.

 

The SCCA has some leeway since they don't have to cater to HPDE groups. Schedules often run long to allow races to go the full distance.

 

So, yeah, it may benefit NASA.


  • john mueller likes this
2017 - SMSE SEDiv ECR Champion
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#13
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

'nother one of them NASA vs. SCCA thangs.

 

If NASA says a session/race is 30 minutes, then it's exactly 30 minutes from the time cars roll on track until the time they roll off, whether the race last 15 laps or 3 laps.

 

The SCCA has some leeway since they don't have to cater to HPDE groups. Schedules often run long to allow races to go the full distance.

 

So, yeah, it may benefit NASA.

 

 

Off topic and irrelevant to boot.

 

SCCA "workers" get more time to take pills and nap between sessions if you move the timing loop.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#14
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 6,121 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

Should we just change the other thread from pros and cons to Smack Talk and let you guys go ??

J~


2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#15
Peter Olivola

Peter Olivola

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 180 posts

My math is just fine, thank you.  Your single car focus is where you miss the boat.  The car ahead of the first car to receive the checker is going to make almost two laps no matter how you slice it.  Then there's the problem that even a Spec Miata laps RA under three minutes, not the four you suggest.  What is the current SM lap record at RA?  Something in the vicinity of 2:40?  Maybe you should reconsider whose math is faulty.

 

Your math doesn't sound right.

 

22 min session, 4 minute laps, 5 min warmup/cooldown:

SF timing, 3 timed laps, 18 min session:

outlap 0:00

hotlap 0:05

hotlap 0:09

hotlap 0:13

cooldown 0:17

pit in 0:22

 

3/4 lap timing Assumes large paddock with room for cooling brakes, 4 min to do 3/4 of lap during warmup, 1 min to come in.

3/4 outlap 0:00

hotlap 0:04

hotlap 0:08

hotlap 0:12

pit in: 0:17

 

 

You'll need to add time for the rest of the field to go out and be collected, but I think I made my point.



#16
LarryKing

LarryKing

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,659 posts

Mr. burGOON, your ageist outlook has a very limited lifespan, if you are fortunate. All of us are young only once. YOU, sir, may be immature all your life.


2017 - SMSE SEDiv ECR Champion
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#17
davew

davew

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Location:Beloit, Wi
  • Region:Chicago
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:72

This system still only works at certain tracks.

 

Sebring would work, put it on the back straight behind the tower.

 

Daytona probably has multiple timing lines already, but where would you put it, on the banking exiting Nascar 4? or befor the busstop?

 

VIR is all twisty befor the pit entrance.

 

Atlanta would need to be coming down the hill into 10a. But that could easily screw up someone who is just starting on a flyer going up the hill from 10b.

 

dave


Dave Wheeler
Advanced Autosports, the nations most complete Spec Miata shop
Author, Spec Miata Constructors Guide, version 1 and 2.0

Building Championship winning cars since 1995

4 time Central Division Spec Miata Champion car builder 2012-2013-2014-2017

Back to Back June Sprints Spec Miata 1-2 finishes 2016 and 2017

5 time June Sprints winner in Mazda's

6 Time Northern Conference Champion Car Builder

2014 SCCA Majors National point Champion car builder

2014 SCCA Runoffs winner, T4 (Bender)

2014 Central Division Champion, ITS (Wheeler)

2013 Thunderhill 25 hour winning crew chief

2007 June Sprints winner, (GT1, Mohrhauser)

Over 200 race wins and counting.
www.advanced-autosports.com
dave@advanced-autosports.com
608-313-1230

Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#18
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

 

My math is just fine, thank you.  Your single car focus is where you miss the boat.  The car ahead of the first car to receive the checker is going to make almost two laps no matter how you slice it.  Then there's the problem that even a Spec Miata laps RA under three minutes, not the four you suggest.  What is the current SM lap record at RA?  Something in the vicinity of 2:40?  Maybe you should reconsider whose math is faulty.

 

 

I was using whole numbers on minutes to make the math easier on everyone, especially for those that struggle with it.

 

Version 2, now with someone who likes to qualify from the back with open track ahead.  Still about 5 minutes at my track with 4 minute laps.

 

 

25 min session, 4 minute laps, 5 min warmup/cooldown:

SF timing, 3 timed laps, 18 min session:

outlap 0:00

late guy leaves pits and hurries his outlap 0:04

hotlap 1 0:05

late guy hotlap 1 0:08

hotlap 2 0:09

late guy hotlap 2 0:12

hotlap 3 0:13

late guy hotlap 3/ checkers follow him 0:16

cooldown 0:17

late guy cooldown 0:20

pit in 0:22

last car in 0:25

 

3/4 lap timing Assumes large paddock with room for cooling brakes, 4 min to do 3/4 of lap during warmup, 1 min to come in.

3/4 outlap 0:00

late guy leaves pits and hurries his 3/4 outlap 0:03

hotlap 1 0:04

late guy starts hotlap 1 0:07

hotlap 2 0:08

late guy starts hotlap 2 0:11

hotlap 3 0:12

late guy starts hotlap 3, checkers (shown at T&S loop) follow him 0:15

pit in: 0:17

late guy pit in 0:20


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#19
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 6,121 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88
I understand Dave, just throwing out the idea in case anyone could use it. (put it in your back pocket)

Maybe if you had a 1/2 hour red flag and you needed to catch up on schedule ?
Just saying,
J~
  • Rob Burgoon likes this
2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#20
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

Damn those crickets get loud!


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users