52 replies to this topic

[ChrisA]

So I should get to know the track as well as the car in HPDE and then slide into Spec Miata when I have the skills and mindset?

You know the answer to that. When first learning to snow ski, do you head straight to the advanced slope & moguls or do you first learn how to stop, turn around and handle the bunny slope?

 

Do the FSR event in Sept. you will learn a lot and have fun. Then in Oct, if you're hooked (and you will be) and can swing it do the Chin event or the NNJR-PCA event. They are both toward the end of the month, so the weather is usually still pretty good. 

[mhiggins10]

You know the answer to that. When first learning to snow ski, do you head straight to the advanced slope & moguls or do you first learn how to stop, turn around and handle the bunny slope?
 
Do the FSR event in Sept. you will learn a lot and have fun. Then in Oct, if you're hooked (and you will be) and can swing it do the Chin event or the NNJR-PCA event. They are both toward the end of the month, so the weather is usually still pretty good.

I go with a fully custom snowboard and a helicopter rental.

[LarryKing]

I agree with Dave W.

 

My timeline: bought a used '91 Miata in January, gutted it, installed bolt-in cage, spec suspension and miscellaneous stuff in February and March, did SCCA driver's schools in April and May (two schools required then, only need one now), first race July 4th weekend. Oh yeah, I did this while sharing the car with my wife for schools/races. Neither of us had ever raced w2w.

 

The difference between then (2002) and now is there wasn't a big presence on specmiata.com to warn me that I shouldn't.

 

It ain't rocket surgery.

[davew]

OK, I knew writting what I did would stir the pot. But I did not have the time to complete my thoughts. Remember this is a generalization based on my experiences.

 

When I work with guys that have done years of DE programs, I have found that they have tooooo much confidence. They have been the biggest fish (usually with the biggest motor) in a puddle. they get into w2w racing and the rules, that have become second nature to them, do not cross over to racing. They do not expect or know how to be passed in a corner. They do expect you to move over on the straights for them. In general they have no cornering speed or ability. they only know how to MASH the loud pedal at track out. It takes a year or better to unlearn, what has been beaten into their brains.

 

DE's do have their value. If you have never been on track, it will get you comfortable with the sensation of speed, eliminate the "sensory overload" that happens to everyone on their first day. You will also learn some important things, like where is the bathroom and what food is edible at the concession stand. You will learn what to pack and what not to pack. If your desire is to nly do DE programs, do everyone you can. If your desire is to race wheel to wheel, do a few.

 

Your first DE is about 95% good. The second is 80%, the third 60% with deminishing benefit as you do more. This applies only if you want to race soon. If your personal circumstances (money, time, work, family, etc.) will not allow you to race soon, but allows you to do DE's, then do them. But remember that DE's and racing are 2 completely different animals. One is a house cat and one is a Lion.

 

As an instructor, I have started with people that where not competent with a stick shift trans. Much less being on a race track. With the right mind set and a decent instructor, you will be able to race the day after drivers school. Locally, I instruct for Midwestern Council, which has a great school for the novice. Yet our local SCCA school is barely adequet.

 

All this being said, if you have the opportunity to do a DE in your current car, DO IT. Maybe you will scare the poop out of yourself and decide this is not right for you. OR, you will love it so much that you are willing to max out every credit card to get in a race as soon as possible. Either is great, just remember to have fun doing it.

 

dave

[ScratchRob13]

My $.02 from someone in their 2nd year racing SCCA... I did HPDE for 2 years, then started racing... best thing for racing for me (other than seat time in the car actually racing): Karting.

 

Even going to the local karting place on a Saturday when it's busy with morons, it gets you into the thought process of setting people up to pass, and where you can poke your nose in and cannot in order to avoid contact.  Plus they are momentum vehicles... like a miata!

[Steve Scheifler]

What Dave said, great post.

But at the same time I would add that from my experience there are a lot of DE drivers who overestimate the difference between what they do and what is necessary to get started in w2w racing. While it may require the adjustments Dave talks about, I have put various DE regulars into our cars for SCCA schools and regionals and in each case they were standouts in the schools and almost immediately solid mid-pack or better in small local events. I know others who talk about it a lot but just can't quite pull the trigger. We need to work a lot harder to make that transition less intimidating. Many of the DE crowd have zero interest in full w2w for a variety of reasons, but we should help to encourage those who show any potential and would like to give it try.

[LarryKing]

 

best thing for racing for me (other than seat time in the car actually racing): Karting.

 

Bing, bing, bing. I think we have the definitive answer. The kids that come-up through karting pretty much kick-ass when they go SM racing.

[ScratchRob13]

Bing, bing, bing. I think we have the definitive answer. The kids that come-up through karting pretty much kick-ass when they go SM racing.

I'm not a kid karting since I was 2... I started karting once a month in the last couple years... and it helped a lot.  Plus there is a decent place nearby, which is awesome for me.

 

People that can start karting at infancy, have a MAJOR advantage!

[larsonracing]

My $.02 from someone in their 2nd year racing SCCA... I did HPDE for 2 years, then started racing... best thing for racing for me (other than seat time in the car actually racing): Karting.

Even going to the local karting place on a Saturday when it's busy with morons, it gets you into the thought process of setting people up to pass, and where you can poke your nose in and cannot in order to avoid contact. Plus they are momentum vehicles... like a miata!

So true

[larsonracing]

My $.02 from someone in their 2nd year racing SCCA... I did HPDE for 2 years, then started racing... best thing for racing for me (other than seat time in the car actually racing): Karting.

Even going to the local karting place on a Saturday when it's busy with morons, it gets you into the thought process of setting people up to pass, and where you can poke your nose in and cannot in order to avoid contact. Plus they are momentum vehicles... like a miata!

I was a championship go-carter for 8 years. It set me up on how to move around the track, sweeping track lines, passing... It was great, hopefully my experience from that will carry into racing.

[larsonracing]

My $.02 from someone in their 2nd year racing SCCA... I did HPDE for 2 years, then started racing... best thing for racing for me (other than seat time in the car actually racing): Karting.

Even going to the local karting place on a Saturday when it's busy with morons, it gets you into the thought process of setting people up to pass, and where you can poke your nose in and cannot in order to avoid contact. Plus they are momentum vehicles... like a miata!

I was a championship go-carter for 8 years. It set me up on how to move around the track, sweeping track lines, passing... It was great, hopefully my experience from that will carry into racing.

[larsonracing]

Bing, bing, bing. I think we have the definitive answer. The kids that come-up through karting pretty much kick-ass when they go SM racing.

That's humbling. I was a championship go-karter and spec Miata is practically the same thing except scaled up, more expensive, risky and fun.

[Steve Scheifler]

On the other hand, look at the background of the SM national champs so far. Just sayin'

Prior experience can have a big impact on how quickly you get up to your potential, but for longer term success I think the biggest factor is the person and what they do after they get into a class like this. This isn't F1.

[ScratchRob13]

If you ain't first, you're last.

[Todd Green]

They do not expect or know how to be passed in a corner.

People were recommending the NASA ladder system.  You do not stay in HPDE for years if you show competence and express you are trying to go W2W.  You'll quickly progress through HPDE1-4 and then run TT where you will be in a class based on your car's performance and competing for times and it has open passing.  There also tends to be some wild (well driven) cars so the HPDE hero will soon find himself getting passed. This generally eliminates all the issues you brought up except for the learning to pass when someone doesn't just lay down for you.

 

At least that is how it works in our NASA region.  But yes, I'd not do HPDE for years, nor would I do a single weekend school and expect I was ready to go racing if I had no prior experience.

 

I'd also throw out doing autox/solo events.  They are cheap and there is no better way to learn car control.  Especially if you live in a small region where you can get 8+ runs a day (plus fun runs at the end.)   Jump into as many other cars as you can (usually allowed while you are a novice or during fun runs.)

[Danny Steyn]

I echo Dave' sentiments - get out of DE as fast as you can.

 

Spec Miata, in terms of SCCA / NASA classes, appeals to a certain type of racer. The racer who LOVES W2W racing. IMO it is the closest you get to full contact motocross racing, but its perfect for those that dont like the regular trips to the hospital associated with motocross. Its motocross with a cage! Just AWESOME

 

Just as back in my motocross days, my most enjoyable races were scrapping with 10 other riders for a mid-pack finish. This past weekend at Daytona netted me an 8th and a 6th place finish and these were two of the most intensely exciting races that I have had all year, and I finished on the podium at almost all the Majors events this year. So its not about the winning or position, its about the amount of effort and concentration required to beat the guy next to you. And when you put your best efforts down on the track, and that nets you a 10th place finish, that is so satisfying, because it was all you had. You should see the smiles of drivers getting out of the cars at Daytona this weekend. So much fun.

 

Those that stay in DE are typically intimidated by W2W, or cannot afford the inevitable crash damage costs that are associated with W2W racing. But Larson, if you love karting, you will LOVE Spec Miata - welcome on board.

[Mark McCallister]

I did one year of HPDE *while* building my SM.  I would definitely do it that way all over again - my previous experience was only auto-x, and in FWD cars..  Great to get comfortable driving on track, and you don't have to worry about having a fully compliant car whilst doing it.  I've watched people try to learn to drive on track during an SCCA driving school, and it can be seriously cringe-worthy.  Get the driving part figured out in a year of HPDE, then do driver's school at the beginning of year two.  I made the mistake of thinking I would continue to do DE's after I started racing (second seat and all) - well after just one W2W race, you're hooked on W2W, and cruising around with Ferraris and Vettes passing you on the straights and parking in your way in the corners is no longer entertaining!

[Rob Burgoon]

I think the HPDE or no-HPDE thing is going to vary wildly based on the local culture and talent in the HPDE scene.

 

Some HPDE groups have real talent at the top, some don't.

 

Once the original poster is ready to go racing, he should look at the size of the fields.  Find a class that appeals, that has a lot of cars in it, in a car that he can afford to race and do that.

 

Might be SRF, might be SM, might be SE30, might be PTE, might be lemons, might be oval.

 

Once you do that, then see about getting a race car for that class.  If you start with the car and try to find a class for it, you're doing it wrong.

[tony senese]

Racing and HPDE are two totally different disciplines.. BUT lots of folks think owning a race car makes you a racer and end up out lots of money and hating the whole sport.....

 

Do at least one HPDE event and see if you really can hold the gas peddle to the floor until the instructor says to brake.....  if not, seek another hobby.

[larsonracing]

Racing and HPDE are two totally different disciplines.. BUT lots of folks think owning a race car makes you a racer and end up out lots of money and hating the whole sport.....
 
Do at least one HPDE event and see if you really can hold the gas peddle to the floor until the instructor says to brake.....  if not, seek another hobby.

What exactly is HPDE besides a tiered ladder system that you can race a variety of cars in? You can have an instructor in the car for HPDE? I'm not too familiar with HPDE because my main focus is SM but trying it once cant hurt.