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Informal Poll: Does the 1.6 need help? How?

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Poll: Does the 1.6 need help? (66 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the 1.6 be given some concessions for parity?

  1. No, it is fine as-is (9 votes [13.64%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

  2. Yes, it needs a little help (49 votes [74.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 74.24%

  3. Yes, it needs a lot of help (8 votes [12.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.12%

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#1
Todd Lamb

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As part of this poll, in the replies below please list the year of car you drive.

 

As well, if you answered in the yes category, give some suggestions as to what changes you feel would provide parity. Feel free to use the Mazda tests and/or any other suggestions (e.g. light flywheel, cams, turn signal removal, etc).


Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

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2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

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#2
Bench Racer

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When talking engines, first subject, power under the curve.

 

How about the SMAC/CRB validate percent power increase per each 10* F temperature intake air reduction and post the number in this thread or within the 1.6 Data and Test thread.

 

Theory would be turn signal air intake, without a known power increase for each 10*F reduction in power. There is a temperature increase between the AFM and throttle body which also plays into the equation.


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#3
Todd Lamb

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When talking engines, first subject, power under the curve.

Please stick to specific recommendations, we'll leave the theory and debate to the other thread. So, what SPECIFICALLY would you like to see done to the 1.6?


Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
www.atlspeedwerks.com
SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner

#4
Danny Steyn

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Yes 1.6 needs help. IMHO it requires TQ to be competitive. 


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#5
Todd Lamb

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99/VVT owner.

 

I am thinking lightweight flywheel and possibly turn signal removal. Both cost effective.


Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
www.atlspeedwerks.com
SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner

#6
Steve Scheifler

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Can you still add an "I honestly don't know" option for whether it needs help at all?
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#7
Todd Lamb

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Can you still add an "I honestly don't know" option for whether it needs help at all?

While that may be the most true option, the reality is that we will never know for sure. So base your answer on personal opinion, the facts at hand, Hagar v. Roth, lap time comparisons from July 1990 at your favorite track, moon landing conspiracy theory, etc.

 

What would be enough? What would be too much?


Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
www.atlspeedwerks.com
SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner

#8
Danny Steyn

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Todd

  1. Turn signal removal is a NO BRAINER as far as I am concerned. Some of the data accumulated in another test yields promising results in terms of reducing heat soak and keeping power delivery more consistent over a race. However it does nothing for TQ. 
  2. Lighter fyweel might work too,

 

But to increase TQ, IMO the easiest way is with a compression/displacement bump, but this costs some money - around $2-$3k. But from earlier questions there seemed to be an acceptance for expenditure under a $5k limit, although the response group was admittedly very small 


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2015 Eastern Conference Majors Champ, June Sprints Winner, ARRC Winner

2014 NASA Eastern States Championship Runner Up.

2013 SEDiv Driver of the Year, Eastern Conference Majors Champ, SEDiv National Champ, ARRC Winner, Runoffs Podium

2011 SEDiv Driver of the Year, SEDiv National Champ, ARRC Winner, Palm Tree Quad National Champ, SEDiv ECR Champ
2010 June Sprints Winner, ARRC Winner

2009 SARRC Champ, SEDiv ECR Champ, FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Majors Winner - BFG Supertour Winner -

#9
Mike Collins

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Driver 1.6 SSM, '99 SM, VVT SM, '06 SM5/T4

 

The 1.6 needs a small amount of TQ.  Neither a flywheel or more air will give it that...


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#10
Todd Lamb

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So Mike what is your proposed solution?


Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
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SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner

#11
Todd Lamb

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But to increase TQ, IMO the easiest way is with a compression/displacement bump, but this costs some money - around $2-$3k. But from earlier questions there seemed to be an acceptance for expenditure under a $5k limit, although the response group was admittedly very small 

While I agree, I would counter that most 1.6 owners are not willing to spend money to meet the current rules (i.e. build a top prep car), so adding $2-3k or even $5k does not seem like a good option for budget conscious racers.


Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
www.atlspeedwerks.com
SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner

#12
Sean - MiataCage

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Driver 1.6 SSM, '99 SM, VVT SM, '06 SM5/T4

 

The 1.6 needs a small amount of TQ.  Neither a flywheel or more air will give it that...

 

Hi Mike.... Not trying to fight or dis-agree with you, but I just want to understand your position on why a lighter flywheel would not be benificial.  Wouldn't less rotational mass at the crank/flywheel decrease the amount of time it takes the car to accellerate?  If so, doesn't this kind of in effect help the car get off the corner better which is the same thing torque would do?

 

I agree that the 1.6 doesn't need much but it does need something.

 

Thanks.... Sean


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#13
Sean - MiataCage

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1.6 and 99-05's

 

My proposed changes are as follows.  I would like to see it tested on track before making it rule to look at some more data and real world scenarios just to validate that it isn't too much.

 

- Turn signal removal

- Allow heat shield tape on the intake snorkel that runs from the intake to the TB.

- Change flywheel min weight to 15.5lbs.  Basically allow removal of the inertia ring.  Stock is 18lbs.

 

Thanks.... Sean


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#14
Mike Collins

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There is a larger problem with the 1.6 that nobody seems to address.  It does not matter what you give it unless the owners actually put it on the car.  You're going to end up with a very few amount of the 1.6's with the update.  We tried to give the 1.6 the '99 front subframe a few years ago and that got negative response from the membership, the good news is the current SMAC and Current CRB don't ever really send anything out to the membership anymore, they just make changes.

 

Sean, the lighter flywheel does allow the motor to spin up faster but it doesn't make any more TQ.  More TQ comes from a bigger boom.  You need more air to make that happen.  You can solve that with a cam, but adopting one that is commercially available that people will buy is not a viable solution.  The 1.6 AFM is the bottle neck.  It flows less air than the throttle body.


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#15
NPiekarski

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RX-7 AFM and either a cam set or just the intake cam. Easier to tech and less invasive/time consuming than the flywheel.


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#16
Sean - MiataCage

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Sean, the lighter flywheel does allow the motor to spin up faster but it doesn't make any more TQ.  More TQ comes from a bigger boom.  You need more air to make that happen.  You can solve that with a cam, but adopting one that is commercially available that people will buy is not a viable solution.  The 1.6 AFM is the bottle neck.  It flows less air than the throttle body.

 

Thanks Mike... That makes sense.  If I put the car on a dyno and measuered acceleration rates with both flywheels would I see a difference in acceleration rates?


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#17
Todd Lamb

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 We tried to give the 1.6 the '99 front subframe a few years ago and that got negative response from the membership, the good news is the current SMAC and Current CRB don't ever really send anything out to the membership anymore, they just make changes.

I suspect the subframes won't give it more torque either? :noidea:

 

The current SMAC will be discussing if/how to get constructive racer input. But I have no idea what that outcome will be.


Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
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SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner

#18
Erik Hardy

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Address the heat soak issue with the turn signal removal, sooooo they aren't a sitting duck at the end of the race. Which means they would have similar power outputs on lap 1 vs lap 10; I don't even think heat soak should be considered a parity item, just limit the degradation of power over time that the other cars don't suffer from.


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#19
Mike Collins

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Thanks Mike... That makes sense.  If I put the car on a dyno and measuered acceleration rates with both flywheels would I see a difference in acceleration rates?

Unloaded, yes. but not in a real world application...  the variance isn't enough.


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#20
Tom Sager

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Address the heat soak issue with the turn signal removal, sooooo they aren't a sitting duck at the end of the race. Which means they would have similar power outputs on lap 1 vs lap 10; I don't even think heat soak should be considered a parity item, just limit the degradation of power over time that the other cars don't suffer from.

I for one think the heat soak issue is probably present in all the cars.


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