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Informal Poll: Does the 1.6 need help? How?

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Poll: Does the 1.6 need help? (66 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the 1.6 be given some concessions for parity?

  1. No, it is fine as-is (9 votes [13.64%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

  2. Yes, it needs a little help (49 votes [74.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 74.24%

  3. Yes, it needs a lot of help (8 votes [12.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.12%

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#21
FTodaro

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2000/VVT owner

 

This is a track dependent question.

 

Short track; The 1.6 with the current wt and decent prep is a competitive car, when driven well, currently. The only help i would give this platform on a short track is the turn signal fix.

 

The 1.6 is underpowered at the bigger tracks with some drafting, Road America, not sure what it needs. but the reality is not many folks field them so the degree of its disadvantage is hard to measure.

 

Big drafting tracks: Daytona, not sure but some think it will be an over dog there due to RPM advantage.

 

Question: is it so bad that some of the different platforms have different Strengths and weaknesses depending on where you go. You fix one shortcoming at one style of track you give an advantage at a different type of track. Where is the balance?


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#22
Bruce Wilson

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1.6

 

There's not a heat soak issue! As Tom points out, no more than any other years.  For the love of god, go look at lap times (throughout the course of races)!!!

 

Lighter flywheel and more compression (9.9).  That may be overkill, BUT for years, people have said the solution is to make it an overdog and then adjust back.  Let do it this time!

 

Look, this isn't hard, it just needs a little bit of help.  All that needs to happen is confirm that a top flight 1.6 can pass (and be repassed) by a top flight NB.

 

Mike, have you tried it?  Some have on various cars (endurance, etc.) and we know that it accelerates faster.  Isn't that what we're after?

 

Frank, what's your point?  Yes, it is track dependent and always will be until we're all driving one model.


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#23
Rob Burgoon

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Option 4

 

1.6 needs no "help", but needs weight and power to be more 99-like


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#24
38bfast

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I for one think the heat soak issue is probably present in all the cars.

on all the NA cars. The NB draws intake air from the front of the tire, 


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#25
trimless

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1993 1.6

 

Header and turn signal removed would be welcomed!


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#26
38bfast

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The 1.6 needs just a bit. It can out Q anything right now. It needs just a touch so it can race a bit better. 

 

We work on and tune all variants.  1000s of dyno pulls on all years and prep levels. A legal 1.6 CAN make the same peak HP numbers as a 99 and its 125 lighter. 


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#27
Tom Hampton

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1993 1.6

 

Header and turn signal removed would be welcomed

Mine's broken anyway, after I rubbed off the NASA sticker from Gabriel's bumper.  ...sorry Brett.


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#28
FTodaro

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The 1.6 needs just a bit. It can out Q anything right now. It needs just a touch so it can race a bit better. 

 

We work on and tune all variants.  1000s of dyno pulls on all years and prep levels. A legal 1.6 CAN make the same peak HP numbers as a 99 and its 125 lighter. 

150lbs to the VVT.

 

Denny no fair voting more than once.

 

I know your a Donald Trump fan.


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Frank
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#29
Tom Sager

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We just need to run all tracks with hills in the opposite direction to make the 1.6 competitive.   :banana:


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#30
Jamz14

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Im James Brown and I drive a 97 with NASA. The 1.6 does not need any help. My basis for this is; there is a 1.6 (actually many) in my region that are consistently beating me, therefore it does not need an improvement. :)


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#31
tony senese

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97 with big wheel marks from trimless...... but not his fault  :wacko:  :toast:


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Phew...... that was a close one!

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#32
Diller

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1994

 

Please give the 1.6 something so that I can start my crusade to help the NA1.8 and we can do this all over again :D

 

Headers and flywheel would be a good start for the 1.6


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#33
Keith Novak

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Im James Brown and I drive a 97 with NASA. The 1.6 does not need any help. My basis for this is; there is a 1.6 (actually many) in my region that are consistently beating me, therefore it does not need an improvement. :)

I think they need to shorten all the straightaways so that we don't hit the rev limiter so early in the 1.8s.


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#34
ToddW

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1.6 driver

      - Remove turn signal

      - Lighten flywheel


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#35
KW78

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Driver 1.6 SSM, '99 SM, VVT SM, '06 SM5/T4

 

The 1.6 needs a small amount of TQ.  Neither a flywheel or more air will give it that...

 

Physics - I agree with Mike.  A lighter flywheel will make it sportier by some finite amount pulling thru gears because there is less inertia robbed, but in 4th gear and 5th gear it will be un-perceivable on a traqmate, for example.

 

If it costs $2k+ to give the motor more torque, then how about ......

 

More TORQUE MULTIPLICATION......

 

4.44 gears will give a little more torque, and defeat a little bit the advantage of the higher 1.6 rev limiter.   The horspower that is nearly equal will still be equal and the accelration rate of the car will be slightly better...

 

99 Driver - and all my home tracks have 1.6 track records so not convinced the 1.6 needs help - its perception does, its national level effort does, but not sure its potential needs help.

 

Kyle


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#36
Tom Sager

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NA1.8 and '00 driver

 

Nothing that hasn't been said many times to add but here goes anyway.

 

The 1.6 well prepped is competitive now at some tracks.  It'll do very well at relatively flat tracks. where the car spends less time "lugging" off the corner or uphill.  Mid-Ohio which is a good equalizer track has been mentioned a few times and anyone that has chased the #17 car around there has seen it first hand.  Excellent car and driver but he has not been to an SCCA national or majors there that I can remember. The car is the most "different" from the other cars (lighter but peakier and more difficult to tune) which becomes a disadvantage at some tracks and I think this was magnified by having the runoffs at Road America 5 years in a row where the cars were not entered much or successful.  The lone exception being the donut car from June Sprints which has mysteriously been somewhat absent from competition in recent years while that driver more often races a VVT car.  In some (not many) racing situations, though, the 1.6 does get beat up IMO due to a lack of torque.  Making the car more the same as the other cars is tough but I think the test that was done shows that there are some components that can help.  

 

I'm surprised that an alternate ECU and/or airflow meter wasn't tested as the tunability of the car seems to be a big issue expressed by 1.6 owners.  

 

The NA1.8 engine should be made legal (optional) for the 1.6 (along with mandatory Torsen and lower rev limiter).  Other power mods for the 1.6 could also be added but a restrictor and/or more weight should come with that.     More testing needed IMO using cars of similar prep.

 

3 possible options to consider:

 

1. Tweak car with turn signal intake and maybe an easier AFM (that doesn't add power) to tune and leave weight alone.

OR

2. Do #1 and another simple mod and add some weight.

OR

3. Do #1 and add a bunch of mods and add restrictor to achieve more 1.8-like power, plus torsen and weight.  

 

Allowing NA1.8 engine still makes sense to me.  


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#37
Tom Sager

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....and Ralph, this one is for you.  Allow the 1.6 to use the larger front sway bar.  


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#38
Steve Scheifler

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Not ready to vote or request anything other than the turn indicator (and headlight bulb) delete. BTW, is that being intentionally stalled until after Daytona?

What I do not think will fix anything is taking a couple pounds off the flywheel. Not that I wouldn't do it if allowed, but the physics is clear, it won't be effective in many scenarios where people seem to think the 1.6 needs help. So my concern is that people will say "you asked for a lighter flywheel and got it, now shut up and drive". If we were drag racing or even autocrossing then I'd say sure, start with that, but the value of lower rotating mass is directly related to the rate at which you are *already* accelerating, and for us that rate is extremely low in any gear and negligible above 3rd and up hills. So yea, it would be nice out of a few 2nd gear corners and help a bit in 3rd downhill with a tail wind, but would do zip up the hill at Road America and anywhere else that acceleration is slow. It simply is NOT the same as adding real torque. If it can be an essentially free modification of a stock part (apparently not supported by Mazda) and you want to throw it in the basket as a stocking stuffer, fine, but it is no solution on its own.
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#39
Justin Casey

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'92 1.6 driver. 

 

Option 1) Drivers side turn signal intake & aftermarket header 

 

Option 2) Drivers side turn signal intake & Add 25 pounds respectively to '99-'00 & VVT's current weight

 

Sidenote: OEM AFM is the bottleneck, but what other options besides the eventually hard to find RX-7 AFM is there?

 

Also, I believe the options mentioned above are the most likely to happen if anything at all in terms of practicality and monetary-wise. However, I believe the availability of the header may become an issue if 25+ 1.6 owners all decide to order the day it becomes legal <_<   


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#40
Tom Scheifler

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Removal of turn signal.

Easy, low-cost, incremental and unlikely to have significant unintended consequences.
No need to collect/analyze data from 16 different best-of-class drivers at 16 different tracks in 16 different states all on the same day within the same 16 minute period with absolutely no mechanical or environmental variances.

Likely to be implemented quickly by a large percentage of 1.6 owners.
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