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Informal Poll: Does the 1.6 need help? How?

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Poll: Does the 1.6 need help? (66 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the 1.6 be given some concessions for parity?

  1. No, it is fine as-is (9 votes [13.64%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

  2. Yes, it needs a little help (49 votes [74.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 74.24%

  3. Yes, it needs a lot of help (8 votes [12.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.12%

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#41
Todd Lamb

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Keep em coming. Good stuff. :)

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#42
Todd Green

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Sidenote: OEM AFM is the bottleneck, but what other options besides the eventually hard to find RX-7 AFM is there?

MegasquirtPNP + AFM delete.  Probably not a good option for a variety of reasons, but it is an option.


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#43
Ron Alan

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NA1.8 and '00 driver
 
Nothing that hasn't been said many times to add but here goes anyway.
 
The 1.6 well prepped is competitive now at some tracks.  It'll do very well at relatively flat tracks. where the car spends less time "lugging" off the corner or uphill.  
 
The NA1.8 engine should be made legal (optional) for the 1.6 (along with mandatory Torsen and lower rev limiter).  Other power mods for the 1.6 could also be added but a restrictor and/or more weight should come with that


Ahhhh....then you own a 1.8 car?? I only see this if the class is split someday and someone wants to run their 1.6 chassis with the other class.

Maybe it was just me but when the NA1.8 was allowed the smaller bar...thank god! I can't imagine a 1.6 car running the 27mm bar with our suspension!

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#44
Steve Scheifler

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MegasquirtPNP + AFM delete. Probably not a good option for a variety of reasons, but it is an option.


I would say a very bad option. What the buget racer doesn't need is a new expensive piece of finicky tech that makes the car hard to start on cold mornings and requires a tuner and lots of time to optimize. As a car guy I love the MS and what it's done for low cost stand alone ECUs. I own one and recommend them to racers in other classes as an affordable upgrade. But in this class we don't need more knobs to turn or more dependence on experts.
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#45
Ron Alan

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95/99 owner.

Look past dyno numbers and look at race ability. And this of course is track dependent ...so not true everywhere!

But in general...a 1.6 cannot hold off a 1.8 pass attempt which is started in the lower RPM's.(add hill and it's worse). But a 1.8 can hold off a 1.6 if the roles are reversed. The 1.6 will have better brakeing and Min corner speed...but all things being equal it is tough to make a brakeing pass stick. So just a little torque here? Mike says the flywheel doesn't work...so what can it hurt? Give it to them!


Despite what Bruce says about heat soak(I believe you Bruce but not all have figured it out!)I think a turn signal intake is a easy first step! For that matter allow all cars to wrap airboxes and crossover tubes ala Dewhurst! Just can't cover connections so anything can be easily removed and inspected! I like the current weights in SCCA!

Start with these 2...$ manageable for most!!
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Ron

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#46
Todd Green

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I would say a very bad option.


Don't worry, Dewey will buy a 99 before we see MS's on 1.6's.


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#47
Bruce Wilson

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My problem with any solution that yields a pure hp gain is that it will exacerbate the lap time issue.  Currently a well driven, well prepped 1.6 should out qualify any NB.  Get enough 1.6s in a gaggle at the front of a field and there's a good chance that the front cars could run away from the NB field while they are busy working their way forward.  We recommend the flywheel and compression options because they are not just hp gains.  Yes, more compression does affect top end too, but that can be adjusted with a plate.


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#48
Johnny D

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http://www.mazdamoto...10001&langId=-1

 

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#49
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Not a ECU guy............... Could the 99 plus be remapped to lessen the torque below some rpm?

 

1.6 folks, my intake air is good through the AFM, it gains 40* F in the plastic tube between the AFM and throttle body. There is a letter in requesting wrapping the plastic tube be made legal.


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#50
Jim Drago

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If we mandated the top 10 drivers in national points had to run 1.6 cars all of next season, this 'parity" problem goes away with the current rule set, or at worst gives us a real delta to shoot for.

While many of the 1.6 faithful are not happy with the way our class changed over the years and I understand that. It is a natural progression. It is normal and healthy to move towards the newer cars. This too will happen to the NB cars whether we like it or not at some point.
I agree with most that the 1.6 could use something.. not out of necessity, but because it hasn't been campaigned and continually pushed by many other than the Miatacage guys out west.

The problem I think the current SMAC faces is the same one we have faced for awhile. If we give all of those changes to 95% of the 1.6 cars out there it still wont be enough to win races. If you give the top 5% guys left in 1.6 cars 10% of those changes it will make it the car to have and create the COTY all over again. That is bad for the class and contrary to popular believe, VERY good for me as we will build whatever the hell people want. The challenge is to give the 1.6 car enough for those top 5 guys or so left to compete for majors podiums and not make it the COTY. In theory, if we can ever get back to that scenario people will be able to feel like that can compete with their 1.6... In reality.. nothing will change as if not an overdog, 99% of the people with talent and finances to run at the front will still race NB cars( right up until the NC arrives)as it makes no sense to switch back to a car that can "also" win. It has to be better. Unfortunately, unless that happens.. No one will recommend a 1.6 build and re sale values will remain low.
Making the an artificial car of the year for the few left 1.6 owners in hopes they will race again is irresponsible at best. The rules should be fair.. In SCCA, the rules are made for the the majors series primarily. When there are few to no 1.6 cars competing at these races, why would you skew the rules in that direction? It would be foolish to think these cars are coming out of garages at this point to run majors. If anything if you are trying to skew the rules for participation.. skew them to those voting with the entry dollars already, not those who are not racing.( For the record, I think skewing the rules is wrong in either direction) Those that are not racing use the parity deal as the reason, I will say that is BS 99% of the time. Racing and racers are cyclical, few stay more than 3 years or so. As these people are cycling in and out, most are entering with Nb cars, further devaluing the NA cars.
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#51
Bruce Wilson

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Because it's the right thing to do Jim.  Mazda feels that way and so do enough of the current SMAC, and that is why they are asking these questions.  How could  it be such a dangerous thing if as you say nobody will come out and run the cars?  And, as you know, adjustments can be made mid year, so at worst, it would only really be COTHY :)


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#52
Jim Drago

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Because it's the right thing to do Jim.  Mazda feels that way and so do enough of the current SMAC, and that is why they are asking these questions.  How could  it be such a dangerous thing if as you say nobody will come out and run the cars?  And, as you know, adjustments can be made mid year, so at worst, it would only really be COTHY :)


I don't remember using dangerous.
I don't remember saying not to make changes.
"what' is the right thing to do?

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#53
Johnny D

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If we mandated the top 10 drivers in national points had to run 1.6 cars all of next season, this 'parity" problem goes away with the current rule set, or at worst gives us a real delta to shoot for.


Problem solved, make it so Todd.
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#54
Tom Scheifler

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If we mandated the top 10 drivers in national points had to run 1.6 cars all of next season, this 'parity" problem goes away with the current rule set, or at worst gives us a real delta to shoot for.


I assume you mean the same 10 guys would win. And that's probably true. But that is soooo not the point and would only prove the cars are close in parity (which pretty much everyone already agrees). If there is a reasonable way to make them even closer then it should be done.

It probably won't change anything at majors but there's a lot more regionals than majors and for some it could mean getting their first podium finish or getting a couple free tires. You know, stuff that's pretty exciting to the guys who are not at the nothing-but-first-place-matters stage of racing.
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#55
FTodaro

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I assume you mean the same 10 guys would win. And that's probably true. But that is soooo not the point and would only prove the cars are close in parity (which pretty much everyone already agrees). If there is a reasonable way to make them even closer then it should be done.

It probably won't change anything at majors but there's a lot more regionals than majors and for some it could mean getting their first podium finish or getting a couple free tires. You know, stuff that's pretty exciting to the guys who are not at the nothing-but-first-place-matters stage of racing.

Tom the only problem with that statement, is that many of the regional racers do not optimize what they have and changing the rules will not change how they approach prep or more importantly how they drive the car. I think you can say this to some degree even at the majors.

 

a few examples. some guys do one alignment a year, will changing these rules help if the set up is off?

 

Or

 

running tires beyond there competitive life, will a few hp or Tq fix that I doubt it.

 

One of the issues i have with this entire conversation is there are a lot of assumptions about the reasons that the 1.6 is not competitive, Yes we all have an opinion, and we all think we are right, but as Todd stated we have little evidence in hand, just our gut feelings.

 

I am not being critical, i think its difficult to get hard and clear facts. there are to many variables for it to just fall in you lap.


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#56
Johnny D

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Let's lay out some facts then that we all agree upon.

1.6 is funner (<-- I like that word) to drive.
Take more time/$ to stay tuned.

99 are easier to maintain.
Better suspension, brakes.
Heavier

Carry on, make the case. (I guess we are but)
If you were picking a car from a grand turismo why would you pick one?
It's fun but...
It's not as fun/heavy but..
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#57
john mueller

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I've run a 99 for the past 14 months, had a 1.6 for the previous 11yrs (crashed and killed it)

 

  • IMO the 1.6 is fine.  Leave it alone.
  • IMO the 1.6 will never again be the "the car to have" for the masses.  Those who make few driving errors are the only folks that will take advantage of it's light weight and nimbleness...  most drivers make too many mistakes that require TORQUE to overcome the time lost.
  • IMO most 1.6 owners won't want to spend any more money than they have already to run a car that they believe is perfect for the type of racing they want to do (AKA regional fun races).

 

While I applaud the SM Working Group for creating this testing program and publishing the results I personally don't feel it will be a car for the majors in any sort of quality that would dictate that a change should be made.  Leave it be.  Maybe it's easier to SLOW the others down to balance??? :nonono:


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#58
Alberto

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Tom the only problem with that statement, is that many of the regional racers do not optimize what they have and changing the rules will not change how they approach prep or more importantly how they drive the car. I think you can say this to some degree even at the majors.

 

a few examples. some guys do one alignment a year, will changing these rules help if the set up is off?

 

Or

 

running tires beyond there competitive life, will a few hp or Tq fix that I doubt it.

 

One of the issues i have with this entire conversation is there are a lot of assumptions about the reasons that the 1.6 is not competitive, Yes we all have an opinion, and we all think we are right, but as Todd stated we have little evidence in hand, just our gut feelings.

 

I am not being critical, i think its difficult to get hard and clear facts. there are to many variables for it to just fall in you lap.

 

 

It's not really a problem per-se.  

 

Regional racers (which make up ~90% of the class) don't care about Nationals and to some extent National Rule Sets.  They want to show up, race someone with a similar prep level and similar skill, have fun and not wind up impoverished b/c they pissed away all their $ racing.  

 

Furthermore, many (some?) regions have their own rules for this and other classes that most racers will build to.  SFR and WDC and others have Sealed SM or SMT[ire] to accommodate regional racer's needs/desires/budgets and keep people coming racing so they can survive or hopefully maintain profitability of the regional organization.

 

It's not that the Regional Racer doesn't WANT to spend money.  It's that we don't NEED to spend money to get what we want out of the sport.  All the guys who want to spend money and want compete at a National level have just about all moved on to NBs.  I think that list was 6-8 people at the last Nationals race here in SFR.

 

Regardless of what the National rule set is, the Regional racer is going to care more about Regional rules.  I frankly don't give a flying brownie about the National rule set since I will continue to run SSM in SFR and buy new tires whenever I want/need and get an alignment whenever I want/need and skip races to preserve my finances along with the majority of the club's members. 

 

That said, I think allowing a header, flywheel and allowing removal of the light would be a great way to allow some of the lower budget guys who might want to try and join the National circus but can't afford an NB would open the field up a little to some new, lower budget talent.  It certainly can't hurt.


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#59
Johnny D

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If you guys keep telling it like it is, only after 3 pages, this thread will never get to 15 pages like last year. :rotfl:

 

How about what do you have to say to the 26 that voted for adjustments?
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#60
Jim Drago

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I assume you mean the same 10 guys would win.

No, that is not what I meant. I am saying those guys will spend the money and time required to get the cars as close as possible in preparation. They also have the ability to drive at the front. IMO, they will compete as is, may win, may not. Most likely they will be off compared to where they were with their NB car. We would know how much the car really needs. I think it does need a little. Of course this is all just talk anyway.. :)

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