268 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

55mm Koyo

 

Vertically the hose is 1 3/8 inch above the wrapped air tube.

Horizontally the hose is 1 1/4 inch from the corner of the wrapped air tube as it joins the throttle body.

 

Potential other theories could be the thermocouple/multi-meter or my data system which is my eyes and memory.  

[Andy Mitchell]

Gee, this tread seems to have gone a bit off topic.

 

Regarding the original question, I own a 1.6, and (based on a cost/benefit analysis from the published data) would opt for the header. Easy-peasy to bolt on, and it means I don't have to worry about broken heat shields or rusty downpipes ever again. Pulling the turn signal sounds good too, but I have no idea of how much real benefit it might provide.

 

Disclaimer: I only race in Canada, so my opinions probably don't carry much weight in this discussion.

[Jason J Ball]

Like wise ignore that my thermocouple was not touching metal and the thermocouple read a 40* F temperature increase. Two other received pm's indicated they measured the similar 40* temperature increase between AFM and throttle body. My racing season is over, my letter with request to wrap tube is sent and the results of the letter will be the results. 

David,

 

Is your thermocouple reaching to the center of the air flow? How is it mounted? Are you certain you are getting accurate temperatures is all I'm getting at. Be sure that you are not getting any conductive heating of the thermocouple body. I'm with James that a 40Deg Delta T across a 3' plastic tube and high velocity air does not seem likely. I work with chilled water heat exchangers used in data centers and with 55deg water flowing through an aluminum fin HX, we design for a 10deg DeltaT across it (i.e. 85deg air inlet, 75deg outlet). These HX's have significantly more surface area than the intake tube in our cars. Not saying that it is not an issue, I just think you may have a data collection/accuracy issue. At 170CFM (2.833ft^3/s) assuming the tube is 3" dia (Area .05ft^2) the air is moving at (2.833ft^3/s/.05ft^2) ~57ft/s through the tube. So the air spends about 0.05s in the tube, not a lot of time to change the temperature 40deg.

 

Jason

[Sean - MiataCage]

For what it's worth, I saw almost the same thing.  We have done several tests with the AIM data unit and sensors in both the intake pre-afm and then in the plastic snorkel right up against the throttle body.

 

On a 90 degree day with Springfield Dyno radiators running water temp in the 170 range I saw a 27 ish degree swing from pre-afm to pre-throttle body.

 

Turn Signa In - Pre AFM = 132.9, Pre Throttle Body = 135.8

Turn Signal Out - Pre AFM = 90.1 Pre Throttle Body = 117.8

 

I completely agree with the science above in Jason's post and the fact that it does not seem possible to increase the temperature that much, but I have now seen it on two different cars in two different scenario's. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that the throttle body has a water jacket that is fed from the cooling system to ( I think ) keep the throttle bodies from freezing up in the winter, so is it possible that the combination of the under hood temps, air passing through the radiator hitting the snorkel and then the heating of the throttle body through the water jacket be causing the increase in temperatures?  I assume that whole intake manifold (after the throttle body) has to be right up there with the water temp. 

 

Sean

[Todd Green]

would opt for the header. Easy-peasy to bolt on,

Depends on the model of the header and if you've notched the tranny tunnel to make room for a seat.  I can tell you that it wasn't easy-peasy to do a Racing Beat header.  Ended up lopping off the end of it and doing a vband to work around the tunnel expansion.

[Andy Mitchell]

Depends on the model of the header and if you've notched the tranny tunnel to make room for a seat.  I can tell you that it wasn't easy-peasy to do a Racing Beat header.  Ended up lopping off the end of it and doing a vband to work around the tunnel expansion.

 

Hmmm... never thought of that. Is this really a super-common problem though? I've got a composite seat in my car (Sparco Pro 2000) and never had to notch the tunnel to make it fit.

[Ron Alan]

For what it's worth, I saw almost the same thing.  We have done several tests with the AIM data unit and sensors in both the intake pre-afm and then in the plastic snorkel right up against the throttle body.

 

On a 90 degree day with Springfield Dyno radiators running water temp in the 170 range I saw a 27 ish degree swing from pre-afm to pre-throttle body.

 

Turn Signa In - Pre AFM = 132.9, Pre Throttle Body = 135.8

Turn Signal Out - Pre AFM = 90.1 Pre Throttle Body = 117.8

 

I completely agree with the science above in Jason's post and the fact that it does not seem possible to increase the temperature that much, but I have now seen it on two different cars in two different scenario's. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that the throttle body has a water jacket that is fed from the cooling system to ( I think ) keep the throttle bodies from freezing up in the winter, so is it possible that the combination of the under hood temps, air passing through the radiator hitting the snorkel and then the heating of the throttle body through the water jacket be causing the increase in temperatures?  I assume that whole intake manifold (after the throttle body) has to be right up there with the water temp. 

 

Sean

Stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once...

 

If both Sean's and David's data collecting is accurate...it would seem to make sense you could see the same change in temperature just on the external parts? Cheapo infared gun show similar temperature changes on the exterior of the delivery system? Maybe at the end of a couple dyno runs with the hood down?

[James York]

 

 

 

The only thing I can think of is that the throttle body has a water jacket that is fed from the cooling system to ( I think ) keep the throttle bodies from freezing up in the winter, so is it possible that the combination of the under hood temps, air passing through the radiator hitting the snorkel and then the heating of the throttle body through the water jacket be causing the increase in temperatures?  I assume that whole intake manifold (after the throttle body) has to be right up there with the water temp. 

 

Sean

 

Yes, coolant does pass through the TB.

[Justin Casey]

Letter submitted to the CRB.

[Steve Scheifler]

Yes, coolant does pass through the TB.

At least, it is supposed to...

[FTodaro]

For what it's worth, I saw almost the same thing.  We have done several tests with the AIM data unit and sensors in both the intake pre-afm and then in the plastic snorkel right up against the throttle body.

 

On a 90 degree day with Springfield Dyno radiators running water temp in the 170 range I saw a 27 ish degree swing from pre-afm to pre-throttle body.

 

Turn Signa In - Pre AFM = 132.9, Pre Throttle Body = 135.8

Turn Signal Out - Pre AFM = 90.1 Pre Throttle Body = 117.8

 

I completely agree with the science above in Jason's post and the fact that it does not seem possible to increase the temperature that much, but I have now seen it on two different cars in two different scenario's. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that the throttle body has a water jacket that is fed from the cooling system to ( I think ) keep the throttle bodies from freezing up in the winter, so is it possible that the combination of the under hood temps, air passing through the radiator hitting the snorkel and then the heating of the throttle body through the water jacket be causing the increase in temperatures?  I assume that whole intake manifold (after the throttle body) has to be right up there with the water temp. 

 

Sean

I did not consider this before but have two buddies with 1.6's and one of them is more sensitive to the heat soak issue than the other, and there are also folks on the forum who do not see  the heat soak issue, one of the variables is the heat produced from the radiator running through through the throttle body, I never thought about that the flow through the throttle body being another factor.

 

So for some fixing the cold air intake may not fix it. could be poor radiator, could be clogged water jacket in the throttle body?

 

From my experience Cross flow radiators work much better than the cheaper top down type.

[Rob Burgoon]

brb, I have some hoses I need to put BBs in...

[Todd Green]

Hmmm... never thought of that. Is this really a super-common problem though? I've got a composite seat in my car (Sparco Pro 2000) and never had to notch the tunnel to make it fit.

My car had already been modified when I bought it (by BSI).  Drago also sells a kit, so you have to assume there is a market.  That being said, we didn't modify our E3 car.  It has some sort of Sparco as well.  I have a RaceTech in my car that is notched and it's a really tight fit.  Dunno if it would fit without having it notched.

[Bench Racer]

Jason thermocouple in middle of air flow.

 

Thank you folks. Because according to some of you folks, it does zero good so ya'll wouldn't mind if I leave my wrapped plastic tube in  place. I'm also going to procure an aluminum flywheel because those in the know say there's minimal value. You all wouldn't care about a header because in the past, over and over people said, no value. And a thinner head gasket may be over the top but a bit more compression is about to join the party. It these items don't help we'll do an honest 10:1.

 

There's a 1.8 NA and a couple 99's from his past Sunday wondering what happened to their straight line suspensions.

 

Nuff on this subject, because ya'll say whatever ya'll all say and it don't do nutten anyway.

 

 

 

 

. 

[Steve Scheifler]

You misrepresent what people have said about pretty much all of that, but I'm sure you know that already.

[chris haldeman]

Bench, be careful with a thinner head gasket. The 1.6 pistons stick up out of the block. If this was a pro built motor you will not have sufficient piston too head clearance with a thinner gasket. Best bet if parity adjustment testing or rule is put in place is too deck the head not install a thinner gasket on retro fitted motors.

[Jim Drago]

Bench, be careful with a thinner head gasket. The 1.6 pistons stick up out of the block. If this was a pro built motor you will not have sufficient piston too head clearance with a thinner gasket. Best bet if parity adjustment testing or rule is put in place is too deck the head not install a thinner gasket on retro fitted motors.

party pooper!

IF YOU PUT A THINNER HEAD GASKET ON A PRO MOTOR WE HAVE DONE( AND THOSE I HAVE SEEN), I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT YOU WILL SMASH THE PISTON INTO THE HEAD.

[Bench Racer]

Chris, thanks. Heads up are always appreciated.

 

Jim, not that thick through the ears.

[Jim Drago]

Chris, thanks. Heads up are always appreciated.
 
Jim, not that thick through the ears.

You do remember we have met several times correct?

[Bench Racer]