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NASA NorCal Sonoma Spt 26th and 27th


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#21
Ron Alan

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Not sure how the protest process works in NASA. Did the protestor have to put up a big bond for those items requested? Is money kept or returned based on the outcome? Like SCCA does the person who is protested get the bond if they are found compliant?

First time in 5 years I have seen a competitor protest in NASA

To clarify...mechanical. Not an on track incident. I still wonder what the protester has to put up for such a list? Any NASA  official or guru know?


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#22
Johnny D

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Well, Craig wasn't there? he could of headed things up.

Who was the SM director?

I wouldn't think tech would want to take this on.

Thus, oh hey... the headlight gap, cool, DQ, I'm done, bye everyone. :)

J~


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#23
topgear3793

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edit: deleted to send privately to James. not trying to start a nuclear war


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#24
Johnny D

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So did they tech it on Monday or just Dq on the head light?

 

Comes with the territory mean, kick some ass and pass in tech. More of a tear down and come out clean the better.

Otherwise there's always the question.

 

And why they do this at the runoffs.

J~


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#25
Ron Alan

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Well, that bridge just went up with 1000lbs of Napom! Tried talking you down but both fingers in the air is what i'm getting! I will give you credit for flaming out on your own terms! 


Ron

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#26
Rob Burgoon

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Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#27
Johnny D

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Up to you Matt, be PC, or

 

 

J~


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#28
pmillion

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Who was the SM director?

 

SM director was Tim Barber with TFB. 



#29
Jamz14

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I have no idea what Matt wrote in response here but, Matt did write me and I found his email to be good. We still disagree on things but I think that is ok. I do want to say that he corrected my interpretation of his comments regarding the sealing of his engine. I misunderstood what he was saying. The other points............well him and I just disagree.

 

On other points from the weekend.

 

NASA and SCCA are just different. NASA is customer driven and is my racing home. The times I have driven with SCCA I found the people wonderful. For many reasons though I drive with NASA and always will. Being customer driven I feel they do everything they can to try and make people happy including the way they handle tech. I like that!! Sometimes though it means they deviate from the published rule book in order to do the right thing. And often in trying to do the right thing for one person they do the wrong thing for another. I think what gets lost sometimes is INTENT. I don't agree with the Sunday qualifying decision. I think it was a mistake; primarily because NASA yielded a position they could have taken that would have left them able to righteously defend their decision. What is not in question with me however is their INTENT. They intended to lessen the damage from a series of problems for competitors that did nothing wrong other than trying to do their best. Those decisions though impacted others and maybe in ways they didn't foresee. Putting aside the issues that Matt had for a moment, I don't see YET how those impacts significantly changed the season outcome for others. That isn't a statement to try and justify anything. It is a statement meant to bring into perspective the overall scope of the issues and to see if our reactions to it are in proportion to its impact. That is all. Maybe the high drama around this is warranted. Maybe not and it is just the natural close to an intense year.

 

All I know for sure is that the TMC drivers as a group showed without a doubt that they are accomplished and competitive drivers. They showed professionalism and poise that few of us possessed when we were at that stage in our lives, as well as showing us that they are as human as we are. I stand by them not as a patron, but as a peer, and with the associated respect given to a peer. And TMC is a bit of a misnomer in that their are some drivers that are also legal adults. To those drivers I am especially cautious of sounding condescending to. With that though also comes a higher expectation of understanding of the politics necessary to make it in this endeavor of theirs. The politics are not some evil thing. At the end of the day, everything is about people and not your driving. Successful people drive pro. Talented people drive if they are also successful people. And if you have both, then you can become an Alonso and have the clout to bad mouth your engine supplier at their home track. Till then................. I don't care how good you are, you will need many around you including the unwitting cooperation of your competitors in order to make it.

 

“Even the finest sword plunged into salt water will eventually rust.”

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”  Sun Tzu


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#30
Rob Burgoon

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Tempest in a tea cup.  A TMC driver learned that loose lips sink ships and that racing is full of @ssholes.  Nothing new to see here, move along.  :)


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#31
Glen Cherry

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Interesting.  I probably would have maintained gaps too...

 

19.3.6 Double Yellow Flags Categories: Command; Global. Description: Two (2) solid motionless yellow flags, displayed at every manned flag station around the course. Uses: NO PASSING is permitted. This is used to indicate “a full course yellow.” This means that there might be a problem somewhere on the track. Drivers are NOT required to significantly slow their vehicles; however they should be prepared to encounter a “local Yellow Flag” situation and/or a Pace Car (or a very slow moving pack behind the Pace Car). The display of Double Yellow Flags does not guarantee the appearance of a Pace Car. It is a command that NO PASSING IS ALLOWED until the Pace Car has pulled off the course (if applicable) and the driver has passed the next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s). Reference Pace Car [Ref:(19.4.1)], [Ref:(20.11)], and [Ref:(20.12.1)]

 

Doesn't say anything about needing to maintain a min speed or catch a pace car.  That official needs a chill pill.

The problem was that without the cars catching up to the pace car and forming one pack, there was not a large enough gap to allow the safety team to maneuver safely into position to remove the a car from the impact zone.  There was a continuous string of cars, so the official black flagged the session to get the car removed from the track.   By the time that was done, there was not enough time to resume the session.



#32
Rob Burgoon

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The problem was that without the cars catching up to the pace car and forming one pack, there was not a large enough gap to allow the safety team to maneuver safely into position to remove the a car from the impact zone.  There was a continuous string of cars, so the official black flagged the session to get the car removed from the track.   By the time that was done, there was not enough time to resume the session.

 

True, but the official apparently was having emotional issues, which is unacceptable.  Also, NASA does hot tows.  I don't see how they can't make that work.


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#33
Glen Cherry

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Yes, the official could have handled it better.  However, there has been several close calls with hot tows, along with safety trucks being hit.  The problem is during a race, not many are slowing at all through a standing, waving, or double yellow, and some are still attempting to pass.  so at NASA Norcal if a car is in an impact zone expect to see double yellow conditions with a pace car to slow everyone down, in one pack, allowing safety to be safe and do their job and get back to green flag conditions ASAP.   In this case, a qual session everybody wanted a gap so everyone slowed down, but tow could not maneuver into position with the constant stream of cars.



#34
Rob Burgoon

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Yes, the official could have handled it better.  However, there has been several close calls with hot tows, along with safety trucks being hit.  The problem is during a race, not many are slowing at all through a standing, waving, or double yellow, and some are still attempting to pass.  so at NASA Norcal if a car is in an impact zone expect to see double yellow conditions with a pace car to slow everyone down, in one pack, allowing safety to be safe and do their job and get back to green flag conditions ASAP.   In this case, a qual session everybody wanted a gap so everyone slowed down, but tow could not maneuver into position with the constant stream of cars.

 

Tough?  Official needs to not get angry about his or her own bad decisions.  In hindsight, he should have thrown the black (with perhaps a curling furled yellow saying git yo butts off now), done a faster cold tow.  Or accept the bad decision and explain it calmly.

 

None of this is the drivers' fault.


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#35
Johnny D

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Saturdays results
http://timingscoring...turday Race.pdf
 
 
Sundays results.
http://timingscoring...Sunday Race.pdf

J~


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#36
Ron Alan

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Tough?  Official needs to not get angry about his or her own bad decisions.  In hindsight, he should have thrown the black (with perhaps a curling furled yellow saying git yo butts off now), done a faster cold tow.  Or accept the bad decision and explain it calmly.
 
None of this is the drivers' fault.


No idea about SoCal but NorCal has had its share of incidents involving saftey vehicles. If in fact the rule as you cut and pasted Rob is current then the race directors issues was not justified. I would think a waving flag at the incident would have allowed the saftey vehicles to get in position to pull a car safely. If the whole track needs to be blocked then a red or black could have Been issued earlier. Can a red be used for this? Non-emergency?

BTW...Glen(who commented above)is the head EMT in NorCal and in the safety truck when he is not going out in SM! Thanks Glen!!

Ron

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#37
Rob Burgoon

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No idea about SoCal but NorCal has had its share of incidents involving saftey vehicles. If in fact the rule as you cut and pasted Rob is current then the race directors issues was not justified. I would think a waving flag at the incident would have allowed the saftey vehicles to get in position to pull a car safely. If the whole track needs to be blocked then a red or black could have Been issued earlier. Can a red be used for this? Non-emergency?

BTW...Glen(who commented above)is the head EMT in NorCal and in the safety truck when he is not going out in SM! Thanks Glen!!

 

Yep.  A red would certainly work, but it's not really the culture for whatever reason.  Maybe to avoid baking brakes?


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#38
Pat Ross

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I think that the system used at the NASA East Championship would have solved the "hot tow" problem. During qualifying under double yellow situations, officials had the option of throwing a second flag (I think blue and yellow). This flag, while under double yellow, required that all on the course reduce speed to 35 miles per hour. This seems better than to have people a half lap behind the pace car running 80-90 mph to catch up.

#39
Glen Cherry

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I think that the system used at the NASA East Championship would have solved the "hot tow" problem. During qualifying under double yellow situations, officials had the option of throwing a second flag (I think blue and yellow). This flag, while under double yellow, required that all on the course reduce speed to 35 miles per hour. This seems better than to have people a half lap behind the pace car running 80-90 mph to catch up.

Nope.  That's what everyone did.  What they wanted was to have everyone bunch up into one pack, so that once that pack of cars passes the incident, safety now has a 2 to 4 minute window with no cars coming by to maneuver into position, hook up the car, and get underway.  Tow had to face counter course to hook up to the vehicle in the impact zone.  Tow was not able to turn around with the steady stream of cars coming by.   In hindsight, going to a black flag sooner would have been better.  A red flag was not appropriate for this situation.



#40
GregHub

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If my ever-fading memory serves me, at the NASA event at TH in late September, the officials went over their interpretation of the double yellow (everyone bunch up) early in the weekend and then it was tested soon after that when a double yellow came out in the very next session (I think it may have been the Saturday race). So some of us knew/remembered and some didn't. Too bad, because as Glen points out, this can be the fastest way to get the track cleared safely for certain situations.

 

Rob's post seems to indicate that this is a "special" interpretation of the rules, which seems fine as long as they make everyone aware of it, either in the supps or at the driver's meeting, or both. Which I don't think they did this last weekend until after the fact. 

 

Although in the pack I was in, every corner worker on the track was waving their arms at the driver at the head of our pack to get them to catch up to the rest of the field - it seemed kinda hard to miss. But why not black flag those particular drivers rather than the whole session? Ah, hindsight...






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