211 replies to this topic

[davew]

At Gingerman, Ralph Provitz (SMAC member) and I had several discussions about tires. Including one with Hoosier tires.

 

My take on the discussions is that Ralph and I agree that the current tire is too sticky and too big. Going to a smaller, less sticky tire will save parts such as wheel bearings, wheel hubs, axle shafts, transmissions, subframes and clutches. We also feel that a change in tires would spread the field. Having less grip will effect the midpack drivers more than the front runners. Psychologicaly this may help with the crash damage. As the 10th place driver will be 1.5 seconds off the pace as opposed to 1.5 tenths.

 

Ralph had a longer conversation with Hoosier than I did, but I came away with Hoosier agreeing with our thoughts. And being willing to adjust the spec tire. Bruce from Hoosier thought that the current contract was through the 2018 season. Maybe Ralph can post his thoughts and corrections if I am mis-speaking.

 

I would expect a "what do you think" coming from SCCA in the near future.

 

Dave

[CarbonRacer]

There should be 1 Set Tire Limit Rule for the complete weekend with 1 Tire Replacement due to damage from an Accident or a Flat. The majority of the field cannot replace tires with new stickers every session or couple of heat cycles to get the competitive edge for qualifying or the first few laps of a race and gain a lead.

 

If the 1 Set Tire Limit Rule was in place then all cars would have less stress on the suspension components without changing the tire size due to the fact that all the cars would be running tires that have some heat cycles on the tires which will have less grip. Some drivers are always putting New Sticker tires to gain the Competitive Advantage with the maximum grip that comes with new tires. If the size of the tires are changed it will help with the suspension part failures but those select drivers will still have the Competitive Advantage and probably will be replacing more tires with New Sticker tires because the smaller size tires will get abused more and wear out faster.

 

If other aspects of the car are restricted by rules to keep the cars equal and the competition equal then why not tires. New tires have a way bigger advantage compared to the car being 5 lbs. under weight or if the car has 5 mm wider track width which are limited by rules but new tires has no limits or restrictions. 

[FTodaro]

Other than the current track records staying in place, i cannot see a down side to the change, but we need more details from Hoosier, i suspect it will be a cost investment for them if they do not have a mold that will work, and while we are at it, if they are willing to consider a change, we might as well ask about the rain tire also, but waiting on that change may make more sense.

 

I have had similar discussions with Ralph that we have been seeing an increase in failures, and opinions are that stress is building up over a period of time resulting in failures.

 

So even if it ends up costing us a bit more per tire, i think its worth it. There will be a larger margin of safety, and less failures. 

[38bfast]

There is no real push for this right now. Its more in the stage of investigating options / need / want. There is nothing official in the system at this point. More me just kicking around ideas and researching options. One thing we have learned is that nothing would change for the 2018 season. 

[Erik Hardy]

Has anyone done a back to back test of a 195 vs 205 tire of the same compound? Are there appreciable differences in lateral accelerations? 

[Johnny D]

I would like if the poll was reset. We've had changes (parity) since 2015 and maybe people don't feel the same way.

 

Also fyi, this thread will pop to the top of new content everytime someone vote, not necessary post a comment.

 

J~

[Diller]

Maybe a question to pose to the Hoosier engineers but would it be easier to create a harder compound rather than a new size. I would rather have more heat cycles available along with less grip than just less grip. Tire budgets will not change with just a different size. It is difficult to police how many tires are used at an amateur event so this would hopefully remove some of the advantage for stickers every race.

[Bench Racer]

Maybe it's time of inclusion. Inclusion being some drivers who can't keep pace today could compete and everyone knows it, if the item of the day was not tire choice to get/have an edge. It all has zero impact to me, BUT, ongoing to the class it does have impact. Keep the tire size/or similar/same rims, get rid of the sticky tires and return to something with more heat cycles.

 

A couple comments from high rollers:

I have heard of drivers using more than two sets of stickers at RRR over a race weekend.

 

I've been going to Roebling since 2009 or so and I can't remember the surface being that slick; you basically need 3 sets of tires to compete now, I only brought one.  Won't be headed back there any time soon until we have a tire rule.

 

We've heard/read other comments of tire/parts cost because of sticky tires.

 

A comment from a tech/track Pro whose been around:

I'd be game to do a 6 tire limit. We do this all the time in short track and it does work. Drivers learn to manage their tires early in race and have something left for the second or last segment. We do run several segment races similar to Cup. But, we require drivers to start on their qualifying tires and only have two tires max for damaged tires.

 

I would add to the last comment, 6 tires, 4 new, 2 used for the weekend, 6 tires including, 1st qualifying through last weekend race. Yes marking/sealing tires is practical and if need be implement a serious consequences rule for he/she who breaks the tire rule.

 

SMAC, today is the time to gather data, request SM driver/owner input, generate a plan,  and implement.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

We currently only have real tech at super tour races, who is going to enforce a tire rule elsewhere? The answer is who the hell knows, one region may have someone who cares to the next region not so much.

For that reason alone I am not for the tire rule.

If we want less competitors within .7 of the poll a less gripy tire is imperative! If we like how close he field has become and how hard it is to now win even a regional race, then beef up the rear hubs like we did the front hubs and the subframes and call it a day!

[Bench Racer]

Were talking for the ongoing good of the class, at least that's my view.

 

Let's start with, for some time period several people including high roller (no disrespect) have commented the class would be more cost effective with less sticky tires, thereby reducing tire costs/other parts cost. Redesigned front hubs, redesigned rear hubs, gusseted rear end housings, where dose it all stop? I get it rear end housings has zip to do with tire stickiness, but most folks get the point, it adds cost. 

 

Back to the poll:

(80 voters)

 

70% support tire size change (I would support a tire which fits same rim we have now)

50% would not support tire size change

 

65% would support tire change size to reduce wear and tear

35% would not support tire change size to reduce wear and tear

 

The three data points above (high roller comments, tire size change, reduce wear and tear) support a tire change. Maybe the poll should have had a less sticky tire question, yes or no. 

 

From my perspective, for the ongoing good of the class, reducing costs that are constantly being increased because of sticky tires is mandatory. Ongoing good of the class being "good" for the other 75% of the class who do not/can not per tire cost sticker as the track may require.  

[Jim Drago]

Were talking for the ongoing good of the class, at least that's my view.

 

Let's start with, for some time period several people including high roller (no disrespect) have commented the class would be more cost effective with less sticky tires, thereby reducing tire costs/other parts cost. Redesigned front hubs, redesigned rear hubs, gusseted rear end housings, where dose it all stop? I get it rear end housings has zip to do with tire stickiness, but most folks get the point, it adds cost. 

 

Back to the poll:

(80 voters)

 

70% support tire size change (I would support a tire which fits same rim we have now)

50% would not support tire size change

 

65% would support tire change size to reduce wear and tear

35% would not support tire change size to reduce wear and tear

 

The three data points above (high roller comments, tire size change, reduce wear and tear) support a tire change. Maybe the poll should have had a less sticky tire question, yes or no. 

 

From my perspective, for the ongoing good of the class, reducing costs that are constantly being increased because of sticky tires is mandatory. Ongoing good of the class being "good" for the other 75% of the class who do not/can not per tire cost sticker as the track may require.  

 

I don't think ANYONE would oppose a 195 tire that gave good grip and lasted for 10-12 usable ( real world) raceable sessions.. ( Meaning at most tracks you could win a super tour race on this tire)

Problem is that tire does not exist. Anything closer to that would be a win-win IMO.  The RR does not offer that either BTW, even if many think it does    

[Johnny D]

I don't think ANYONE would oppose a 195 tire that gave good grip and lasted for 10-12 usable ( real world) raceable sessions.. ( Meaning at most tracks you could win a super tour race on this tire)
Problem is that tire does not exist. Anything closer to that would be a win-win IMO.  The RR does not offer that either BTW, even if many think it does

 
Really ??
 

Steve. At several tracks the TOYO RR gives very similar lap times to the Hoosier SM7 with a lot more Heat Cycles. Even at Barber which should favor the softer stickier Hoosier, my TOYO Lap Record is almost a second faster than my Hoosier time, but ambient and track conditions that day were favorable.

At every track that I have raced recently with the TOYOS, I have compared mid-corner min-speeds to the Hoosiers, and at the most they are around 1mph down in the very fast corners (90mph+) and almost identical in corners slower than that. On the straights they might actually roll slightly faster.

If the class allowed us to run TOYOS and HOOSIERS, I would happily compete in regional races on TOYOS, as I would get more bang for my buck and I suspect I would only be lapping a tenth or two slower. But at the Majors I would definitely run the Hoosiers as I would need that tenth or two in these exceptionally competitive fields, where often the top 10 are within less than a second.

In terms of rain tires the Hoosier H2O has no equal - in pouring rain is at least 10 seconds a lap faster than unshaved RA1's, and makes the average driver feel like a rainmeister, but once you have run them once, they are test tires. Personally I wish we all ran the RA1's for rain tires as you can get many seasons of racing from a set of RA1's.

Just thought you might like another viewpoint

[38bfast]

guys we have the cart before the horse. Let us investigate the options with Hoosier. As Jim says this tire we want may be a unicorn. A new tire could bring in unknown risks that would put us in a situation no better than we are in now. Remember the R888 mess we had years back. and the toyo RR has it issues as well. A 195 may not be the answer either, Its never been tried and there would be a lot of tooling cost involved for the experiment. 

[Erik Hardy]

Outside of the logistics of checking in / out tires and recording nightmare...

 

Lets say you are a budget racer and a maximum tire rule of 6 per weekend was implemented. Then lets say you are close friends with people who are faster than you, who you always buy their 3-4 heat cycle tires from for a discounted rate compared to new. Therefore to limit the double digit amount of heat cycles per weekend, 2 or 3 sets of wheels might be swapped out during the weekend. 

 

Would a tire limit, thus possibly induce greater cost to the budget types by being forced into stickers? Just some devils advocate

[Johnny D]

guys we have the cart before the horse. Let us investigate the options with Hoosier. As Jim says this tire we want may be a unicorn. A new tire could bring in unknown risks that would put us in a situation no better than we are in now. Remember the R888 mess we had years back. and the toyo RR has it issues as well. A 195 may not be the answer either, Its never been tried and there would be a lot of tooling cost involved for the experiment. 

 

Is Hoosier as flexible about coming out with a new tire since the Continential acquisition ???

 

J~

[Jim Drago]

 
Really ??
 

Yes , really!

You might ask Mr Steyn to define favorable as well

Every time these tires are raced less the Championships.. The competition level is for the most part far far less than half of what is raced at a super tour race.. Many of us can get away with running older tires under those circumstances.. Just stating fact.

 

NO 10-12  session RR is WINNING ANY  in any super tour quality field other than perhaps Mid Ohio or Watkins.. Every else a newer tire wins, just like we have now.  

[Bench Racer]

I don't think ANYONE would oppose a 195 tire that gave good grip and lasted for 10-12 usable ( real world) raceable sessions.. ( Meaning at most tracks you could win a super tour race on this tire)

 

Good grip is very subjective.

 

No question of your second point, everyone would be racing on this tire.  

[Bench Racer]

Outside of the logistics of checking in / out tires and recording nightmare...

 

Lets say you are a budget racer and a maximum tire rule of 6 per weekend was implemented. Then lets say you are close friends with people who are faster than you, who you always buy their 3-4 heat cycle tires from for a discounted rate compared to new. Therefore to limit the double digit amount of heat cycles per weekend, 2 or 3 sets of wheels might be swapped out during the weekend. 

 

Would a tire limit, thus possibly induce greater cost to the budget types by being forced into stickers? Just some devils advocate

Gee, I'll bet we could lean on Jim Creighton's experiences. Tracking tires has been going on for ever. For ever would be before many Spec Miata racer's were born. 

[BNaumann]

Outside of the logistics of checking in / out tires and recording nightmare...

Lets say you are a budget racer and a maximum tire rule of 6 per weekend was implemented. Then lets say you are close friends with people who are faster than you, who you always buy their 3-4 heat cycle tires from for a discounted rate compared to new. Therefore to limit the double digit amount of heat cycles per weekend, 2 or 3 sets of wheels might be swapped out during the weekend.

Would a tire limit, thus possibly induce greater cost to the budget types by being forced into stickers? Just some devils advocate

I was thinking the same thing. I don't have new tires every weekend. I'm rotating a bunch of used tires based on what I'm trying to accomplish that weekend/session.

As far as other brands/compounds go, be careful what you ask for. As was pointed out to me when I was whining about the "sticker war," when you pull an SM7 off the shelf, it's as fast as it's ever going to be. If a tire needs special care and feeding - shaving, cycles, prep, etc - to be at its best, it's going to be even more cost and/or hassle to run what the top teams are running.

[38bfast]

Is Hoosier as flexible about coming out with a new tire since the Continential acquisition ???

 

J~

Hoosier/conti is just like any other company out there. They want to sell as much of their product for a profit. I they can make a business case that works for them they will do whatever we want.