211 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

Yes , really!

You might ask Mr Steyn to define favorable as well

Every time these tires are raced less the Championships.. The competition level is for the most part far far less than half of what is raced at a super tour race.. Many of us can get away with running older tires under those circumstances.. Just stating fact.

 

NO 10-12  session RR is WINNING ANY  in any super tour quality field other than perhaps Mid Ohio or Watkins.. Every else a newer tire wins, just like we have now.  

 

I liked your 1st 2 words until you edited it.

 

You didn't read his quote or all of it, I assume.

J~

[Jim Drago]

I liked your 1st 2 words until you edited it.

 

You didn't read his quote or all of it, I assume.

J~

I did..  he is saying the same thing.   

Favorable was not nearly a strong enough word to describe the difference IMO. 

[Bench Racer]

Hoosier/conti is just like any other company out there. They want to sell as much of their product for a profit. I they can make a business case that works for them they will do whatever we want. 

Great, we've had several different tires from two companies over the course of the Spec Miata class life. With the existing parts wear issues, tire info including a tire limit rule and input from tire manufactures we should know a direction we want to go. 

 

For the other 75% of the class, shaving is more cost effective than doing the sticker thing. 

[davew]

The point to be investigated by SMAC, Hoosier, SCCA is how to get more heat cycles without speed degradation, with a little less grip, in a cost effective manner.

 

Is the answer a different size with the same compound? Probably not as the grip level will probably still drop off quickly.

 

Is the answer a different compound with the same size? Maybe. But less grip will mean slower lap times. Which may not be a bad thing.

 

Is the answer a smaller tire with a different compound? This would be my thoughts. The grip level would be decreased by both contact patch size and compound. The smaller tire should be lighter, so we may get an increase in performance over a heavier tire. 

 

If any change is made, it should be tested thourghly and publicly. Get several sets out to several teams. That way they can be tested by fast and slow drivers. At fast and slow tracks. And over varied conditions. I am against a 1 day test as was done years ago. I would also be against a "best guess" program as that did not work with the R888's.

 

Just my opinion, flame away

Dave

[Johnny D]

Just throwing this out...not the cure.. still would need tech/policing I assume.

 

If everyone did the "tire breaking procedure" or they came from Hoosiers that way, would that knock a bit of the good off, last longer, etc, etc. So a new set isn't so desired ??

 

TIRE BREAK-IN PROCEDURE
Proper break-in will not affect initial performance but will increase the competitive life of the tire.
The procedure can be broken down into phases.
1st phase: The initial run
2nd phase: The length of the time the tire is allowed to “cure”
THE INITIAL RUN HEAT CYCLE
A7/R7 Roadrace
The first laps for the tire are critical for setting up the durability and competitive life. The first session should consist of no more than 10-15 minutes of running. The
early part of the session should be run at an easy pace, with the speed gradually increased until the end of the session. The final lap should be run at the fastest possible
speed. The intent is to achieve maximum tire temp on the last lap. At this point the car should be brought in and the tires allowed to cool at a normal rate.
During the initial run-in process, the inflation pressure should be 3-5 psi higher than you would normally use. The best progression would have the driver taking 4-7
laps to accomplish this break-in. Each lap should be approximately 7-10 seconds a lap faster than the previous lap. The goal is to have the tire temp as high as possible
on the last lap without “shocking” the tire during the warm up laps. In essence, no wheelspin, late braking, or sliding. The last lap should be at, or very close,
the maximum possible.

[Michael Novak]

Just throwing this out...not the cure.. still would need tech/policing I assume.

 

If everyone did the "tire breaking procedure" or they came from Hoosiers that way, would that knock a bit of the good off, last longer, etc, etc. So a new set isn't so desired ??

 

TIRE BREAK-IN PROCEDURE
Proper break-in will not affect initial performance but will increase the competitive life of the tire.
The procedure can be broken down into phases.
1st phase: The initial run
2nd phase: The length of the time the tire is allowed to “cure”
THE INITIAL RUN HEAT CYCLE
A7/R7 Roadrace
The first laps for the tire are critical for setting up the durability and competitive life. The first session should consist of no more than 10-15 minutes of running. The
early part of the session should be run at an easy pace, with the speed gradually increased until the end of the session. The final lap should be run at the fastest possible
speed. The intent is to achieve maximum tire temp on the last lap. At this point the car should be brought in and the tires allowed to cool at a normal rate.
During the initial run-in process, the inflation pressure should be 3-5 psi higher than you would normally use. The best progression would have the driver taking 4-7
laps to accomplish this break-in. Each lap should be approximately 7-10 seconds a lap faster than the previous lap. The goal is to have the tire temp as high as possible
on the last lap without “shocking” the tire during the warm up laps. In essence, no wheelspin, late braking, or sliding. The last lap should be at, or very close,
the maximum possible.

I and many others I believe have tried this method and found it to make no difference.   Maybe its just me.....

[Tom Sager]

If as stated somewhere in this thread the Hoosier contract runs through the end of 2018, then time is of the essence if we want a longer lasting (at near peak performance) tire.  Asking any manufacturer to build a tire not in existence now and have it tested and ready and approved within 16 months or so is tight.  Hoosier IMO with their excellent service and a very good product as well has earned the right for first and maybe last look at our deal but I think it would be foolish to put all eggs in that basket as there are several other potential choices out there.  From reading this thread and talking to others it seems like a significant majority would like a tire that is more economical to use including reducing wear and tear on the car. 

 

Looking at a Northern conference Majors schedule of 6 races, you'd need to buy about 7.5 sets of tires a year if you want to qualify and race on the golden 1-3 heat cylces on the tracks that like new tires.  Some are doing more than this.  Cycles #4 to whatever are good for Mid-Ohio, practice time, less important events or secondary sale to those looking for cheap tires.  At $800+ plus per set with shipping and M&B that's $6000 per year for tires.  Yes you can "win" back some tires and recover $1000 or so resale and/or you get some "free" use of your older tires but that is a lot of dough folks.  I don't think anyone wants to spend that much and most won't.  We have to do better.  We should aim to cut that number in half at least IMO.  The RA-1 to me still looks like the best overall tire that we've used in terms of long, consistent and predictable life.  Something more like that even with a Hoosier label for SCCA would be great IMO.

 

I also think NASA which is struggling in this part of the country in SM numbers is not helping themselves by running a different tire but their tire choice would not be hard to defend otherwise.  Since the tire split I haven't run a single NASA event because Hoosier gets all the tire money I'm gonna spend.

 

FE is running a tire that lasts F O R E V E R and is still fast for that long too.  Grip sucks but's it's very economical.

 

Edit:  A tire rule might be helpful also but administering it and enforcement are challenging and using the wish for better contact rules as an example it's hard to see a tire rule getting implemented at all. 

 

Back to what's next, this class deserves whatever time and effort is needed by SCCA to come up with the best 2019 option we can find.  We've got to reduce tire cost and wear on the car.

[FTodaro]

What is it that we are after?

 

A tire with less grip

 

A tire with more HC

 

or Both

 

Hoosier will be happier to come up with a tire with less grip but there is not much incentive for them to come up with a tire that will last significantly longer, They want to sell tires.

 

If you want both you better be prepared to get out the wallet. They are not doing this as a hobby.

 

There are lots of less costly options that could be tested but i am loyal to Hoosier, to me the support they provide is well worth the price. I am in the camp that we need to explore options for less grip, as failures are on the rise, but If i had to live with the SM7 I could, its proven to be the best tire we have ever had IMO.

[Martinracing98]

What is it that we are after?

 

A tire with less grip

 

there is not much incentive for them to come up with a tire that will last significantly longer, They want to sell tires.

The incentive is to sell tires. That is why when evaluating the next tire consider Hoosier, Goodyear, Hankook, Toyo, etc. However gives the best of what is wanted including longevity gets the contract. I race SRF. They test multiple brands, and more than one model with some. The tire we got has great duration, longer than the tire it replaced, and consistant performance. The tire is Hoosier.

[38bfast]

Tom the FE tire is a complete disaster. No one likes driving on it. Has about 2 deg of slip and then loses all grip. They are working on revision 4 of that tire right now. May last forever but it's a tire no one wants to drive.

[Ron Alan]

 

 

I also think NASA which is struggling in this part of the country in SM numbers is not helping themselves by running a different tire but their tire choice would not be hard to defend otherwise.  Since the tire split I haven't run a single NASA event because Hoosier gets all the tire money I'm gonna spend.

 

 

Funny how things are different region to region!

 

SFR SCCA(local west coast region)went back to Toyo after the 2014 runoffs(15 season) for regional races for one reason...the membership felt for the money it was a better tire! And I think it has been fine...but ironically the membership gets nothing from that change from Toyo. Same region for NASA competing for the same drivers has always been on Toyo but offers tire contingency money every event! $2150 in Toyo bucks every weekend is up for grabs in SM! Average car count for NASA SM is the highest it has ever been right now. SCCA has lost car count but is holding steady the past few years.

 

In theory, both orgs should get a little bump next year because of the Runoffs at Sonoma...NASA will benefit most with its 5 track dates at Sonoma to SCCA"s 1!

 

I may run it up the flag pole to the powers that be to allow Hoosiers to be run at regional events(In NASA) to allow people to get in practice...of course they would be not scored. Just a thought!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Funny how things are different region to region!

SFR SCCA(local west coast region)went back to Toyo after the 2014 runoffs(15 season) for regional races for one reason...the membership felt for the money it was a better tire! And I think it has been fine...but ironically the membership gets nothing from that change from Toyo. Same region for NASA competing for the same drivers has always been on Toyo but offers tire contingency money every event! $2150 in Toyo bucks every weekend is up for grabs in SM! Average car count for NASA SM is the highest it has ever been right now. SCCA has lost car count but is holding steady the past few years.

In theory, both orgs should get a little bump next year because of the Runoffs at Sonoma...NASA will benefit most with its 5 track dates at Sonoma to SCCA"s 1!

I may run it up the flag pole to the powers that be to allow Hoosiers to be run at regional events(In NASA) to allow people to get in practice...of course they would be not scored. Just a thought!

I would probably run some nasa GL races but they have never wanted to waive scoring for the tires. Always some complaint that someone with Hoosiers will somehow mess up someone with Toyo tires race????

[Tom Sager]

Tom the FE tire is a complete disaster. No one likes driving on it. Has about 2 deg of slip and then loses all grip. They are working on revision 4 of that tire right now. May last forever but it's a tire no one wants to drive.

Yes I'm aware they are changing their tire and that they don't like the lack of grip.  That tire literally runs fast 20+ heat cycles.  They do like the economy of it though.  Finding a happy medium for them and us should be possible.   

[Tom Sager]

The incentive is to sell tires. That is why when evaluating the next tire consider Hoosier, Goodyear, Hankook, Toyo, etc. However gives the best of what is wanted including longevity gets the contract. I race SRF. They test multiple brands, and more than one model with some. The tire we got has great duration, longer than the tire it replaced, and consistant performance. The tire is Hoosier.

Which Hoosier do you run in SRF?

[38bfast]

Yes I'm aware they are changing their tire and that they don't like the lack of grip. That tire literally runs fast 20+ heat cycles. They do like the economy of it though. Finding a happy medium for them and us should be possible.

It's not the lack of grip overall that's the issues it's that the tire gives up all grip with very little slip. Very hard tire to drive and not very fun. It's almost dangerous.

Like Jim said the perfect tire is not as easy as some would think. SM tried and failed with the 888. FE is failing with the AR tire. The SM6 would grain real bad at some track. The RR requires saving at some tracks. The RA1 was only fast when it was worn out.
The amount of testing to insure a tire is a success would be costly and very time consuming. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

[Ron Alan]

I would probably run some nasa GL races but they have never wanted to waive scoring for the tires. Always some complaint that someone with Hoosiers will somehow mess up someone with Toyo tires race????

Not sure what GL is but never been an issue to run PT or ST in SM trim with Hoosiers...guys supersize all the time for extra track time. Agreed...the regular SM crowd may have an issue with mixed tires in the group. Again, just my thoughts here...never hurts to ask if the request is made!

[Tom Sager]

It's not the lack of grip overall that's the issues it's that the tire gives up all grip with very little slip. Very hard tire to drive and not very fun. It's almost dangerous.

Like Jim said the perfect tire is not as easy as some would think. SM tried and failed with the 888. FE is failing with the AR tire. The SM6 would grain real bad at some track. The RR requires saving at some tracks. The RA1 was only fast when it was worn out.
The amount of testing to insure a tire is a success would be costly and very time consuming. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

I brought up FE simply to point out that longer lasting tires exist.  They'll make a change and if that change results in needing new tires every event to be competitive, they won't be happy with that. 

 

Agree it's a time consuming exercise to test but it needs to be done and if the manufacturers want an opportunity they'll have to do some work.  As a class and a business opportunity, we're worth some effort IMO. 

[Jim Drago]

Which Hoosier do you run in SRF?

They run our tire

[luvin_the_rings]

I like how a shaved Hoosier is no good. It makes it easier for somebody with no access to a tire shaving machine.  

 

A shaved RR is very fast I hear.  

[Qyxz]

Give me more, consistent, heat cycles.  A bit of fall-off is ok (so the guys that really want the extra grip and have the money to spend keep selling me their takeoffs at a discount).  That way I can do more events, and not necessarily less tires are sold.  

 

Because any recommendation that results in decreased tire sales (like a tire limit per event) I'll bet Hoosier doesn't go for.  

 

I don't really care about slightly reducing the grip.  At the end of the day it's the same for everyone.  Maybe it'll be better for mechanical components but I haven't been around long enough to see too many breakages on my car.  Until I see a correlation I'll abstain from having an opinion on grip.