211 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

WTF, when one adds up the content of these 4 threads it's like asking an accountant, how much is 2 + 2? Response from accountant, anything you want it to be. 
 
Y'all get the big one.

How do I get the BS flag for reporting facts on a car that I built, prepped and driven for two seasons solely on the tires in question and reporting what "wear" these tires did to my car? You want me to give you some more "fake news"

[Danny Steyn]

As we see individual experiences vary from one extreme to the other, so we can only talk from our own personal experience. So FWIW here is my PERSONAL assessment of the past and present tire situation and I am NOT talking on behalf of SMAC 

 

In my case, I have raced approx 17 weekends a year for the past 10 years, and in many cases I have doubled up racing my Spec Miata in other classes. I always run the test day so in reality I get an average of more than 10 sessions per weekend so race around 170 race sessions per annum. I change out my cars every 2 years. 

 

During this time I have raced on RA-1's, R888, RR. SM6 and SM7's. Under the OPM tent, with their approach to maintenance, I have not experienced an increase in bearing, hub and sub-frame failures.

 

My personal tire summary 

 

TOYO RA-1

I think the RA-1's were the hardest wearing tire, and gave the most heat cycles, but we all shaved the tires down and had a spreadsheet for every track and had a shave that worked for that track, and we also had to do tests to determine what the best shave and cure was. So while they exhibited great wear characteristics, we were still getting similar life to the current SM7 tire. The RA-1 "rain tire" was phenomenal - no grip, scary as all get out, but it could easily last more than a year with many wet sessions. For me the perfect rain tire!!!!!

 

TOYO R888

Total disaster as a Spec Miata Race Tire

 

TOYO RR

Actually a very good race tire, but still benefits from shaving and those that are experimenting are finding different shaves suit different tracks - For this reason I am happy that it is not our tire of choice for SCCA

 

HOOSIER SM6

Total disaster as a Spec Miata Race Tire. This exceptional tire had one or two hero laps, was always best as a sticker tire and was by far the most expensive tire we have ever had. It more than tripled my annual tire budget.

 

HOOSIER SM7

Great tire, much cheaper to run than the SM6. Shaving does not improve the competitiveness of the tire, most front runners typically get 3-4 very competitive heat cycles at most tracks, more at some and less at others. The tire has helped make the racing very close. Predictable break away characteristics, with decent slip angle and no surprises. The current H20 is a phenomenal tire in terms of wet weather grip, but it is having a negative affect on peoples rain driving skills as no one goes out in a wet weather session (unless its a rain session) as it costs you $700 per session as the tire has only one competitive HC as a wet tire. So drivers are not practicing their wet weather skills. 

 

 

MY GENERAL OBSERVATIONS AND DESIRES

• We all want the unicorn tire that is competitive at all tracks under all conditions, and gives us the most possible heat cycles. This tire does not exist and will not exist
• We want a durable tire that works for a good number of HC at most tracks, but some tracks will always need stickers and some tracks will always prefer high HC tires - this will not change no matter what tire we use
• The current rain tires is too expensive to use, and needs to be of a harder compound. Lots of drivers will not agree with this as they love the H20 because it feels safe and predictable.

CONSIDERATIONS and CONSEQUENCES

• Going to a smaller tire does have some merit. It will reduce the grip, potentially lower the stresses on the car components, but with less grip comes more wear and potentially less HC.
• Going to a harder compound also has some merit. Once again it will reduce the grip,  potentially lower the stresses on the car components, but with less grip comes more wear and potentially less HC.
• Both of the above or even a combination of the above, while attractive on the surface, will also come with some unforeseen penalties. The time gaps between drivers will increase with less grip, just in the same way going to a harder rain tire will exacerbate time gaps between drivers. The more grip that a tire provides, the closer the fields are. There will always be those that have good car control and that are more comfortable on the ragged edge of disaster. 
• And with less grip, more sliding, the competitive HC lifespan might not actually improve,and so the annual tire budget might not decrease and many even increase. 

 

Personally, with my limited component failure experience, the number of competitive HC I get, the zero competitive advantage from shaving, and the great support we get at the track from Hoosier, I personally believe that the SM7 is the best tire that the class has ever raced on.

 

However I am definitely open to trying out smaller / harder compound tires. and I would ABSOLUTELY like to see a longer lasting rain tire. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom Sager]

How do I get the BS flag for reporting facts on a car that I built, prepped and driven for two seasons solely on the tires in question and reporting what "wear" these tires did to my car? You want me to give you some more "fake news"

While it may not have been the best application of the BS flag, you probably deserved somewhere along the way.

[Jim Drago]

While it may not have been the best application of the BS flag, you probably deserved somewhere along the way.

I AGREE, ALL EXCEPT FOR THE PROBABLY

[Bench Racer]

Sure, ok, great, the sub-frame/hub/whatever failures are all driver or track initiated. Next the theme will be stickering for each session is the most cost effective way to go. Please, may I include a little bitty bs flag.

 

When Kart racing back in the early 90's Bridgestone IIRC YBX tires were mandatory, because of cost effectiveness. Harder than _ucking rocks and one was require to learn how to set up and drive the Kart.  

 

​Someone please freeze this thread, the parts failure and tire issue wasn't real to begin with, for those with deep pockets. 

 

​

[luvin_the_rings]

I'm against any tire that gives a significant advantage to shaving. 

[Jim Drago]

Sure, ok, great, the sub-frame/hub/whatever failures are all driver or track initiated. Next the theme will be stickering for each session is the most cost effective way to go. Please, may I include a little bitty bs flag.

 

When Kart racing back in the early 90's Bridgestone IIRC YBX tires were mandatory, because of cost effectiveness. Harder than _ucking rocks and one was require to learn how to set up and drive the Kart.  

 

​Someone please freeze this thread, the parts failure and tire issue wasn't real to begin with, for those with deep pockets. 

 

​

Subframe failures grossly exaggerated..

Hub failures real, but slightly exaggerated.  

 

 

You are mixing two separate topics.. 

The tires are not causing all these problems as IMO most of these problems are exaggerated.  They have real race tires in prod and not having these issues either BTW

 

As far as stickering up, harder and more economical tire that lasts longer.. I'm on your side. i would love a tire ( even if slower) that is consistent over 10-12 cycles 

But these two things are not the same issue IMO

[BNaumann]

Sure, ok, great, the sub-frame/hub/whatever failures are all driver or track initiated. Next the theme will be stickering for each session is the most cost effective way to go. Please, may I include a little bitty bs flag.

When Kart racing back in the early 90's Bridgestone IIRC YBX tires were mandatory, because of cost effectiveness. Harder than _ucking rocks and one was require to learn how to set up and drive the Kart.

​Someone please freeze this thread, the parts failure and tire issue wasn't real to begin with, for those with deep pockets.

​

In the mid 2000s the WKA spec for Yamaha was the YHC. Fast guys ran two heat cycles max and then sold them on eBay for 1/4 of the price. Locally our open tire rule allowed us to run the softer YHB that was good to me for at least four days (16 heat cycles) and an iffy fifth day (I usually saved for a race that didn't matter). Just saying harder isn't always better.

[Danny Steyn]

As far as stickering up, harder and more economical tire that lasts longer.. I'm on your side. i would love a tire ( even if slower) that is consistent over 10-12 cycles 

But these two things are not the same issue IMO

 

I want this tire too, but any tire that is going to be great over 10-12 HC is going to be a lot lighter shaved and noticeably fast  for 3-4 HC

[Danica Davison]

I want this tire too, but any tire that is going to be great over 10-12 HC is going to be a lot lighter shaved and noticeably fast  for 3-4 HC

 

This is probably a stupid question, but is it possible to tell if it has been shaved or not, just by looking at it?  I have never shaved tires before so I don't have much knowledge of it.  And If it is possible to notice ... would a "No Shaving Rule" be possible to enforce?

[Jim Drago]

This is probably a stupid question, but is it possible to tell if it has been shaved or not, just by looking at it?  I have never shaved tires before so I don't have much knowledge of it.  And If it is possible to notice ... would a "No Shaving Rule" be possible to enforce?

The no shaving rule is a joke, it is not enforceable at all.  If you want to beat the no shave rule.. You shave the tire, run it it on the street for a mile or so, put four session marks on the sidewall and you are done. 

 

Not sure if it is increased competition, understanding the tires more, my driving style or something else.. But I feel like my useful cycles on the SM7 are less than they were a few years ago?  I really don't understand why. I will race them up until three sessions at most tracks and then they are relegated to test or regional tires that I sell off.  

[Danica Davison]

The no shaving rule is a joke, it is not enforceable at all.  If you want to beat the no shave rule.. You shave the tire, run it it on the street for a mile or so, put four session marks on the sidewall and you are done. 
 
Not sure if it is increased competition, learning the tires more, my driving style or something else.. But I feel like my useful cycles on the SM7 are less than they were a few years ago?  I really dont understand why.

 

I figured it would be tough to keep track of. And yeah, I only buy one set on a majors weekend and it seems after 2-3 heat cycles ... it is just like driving on 7 heat cycles (imo)

[Johnny D]

How about a great 10-12hc tire with 2/32" tread ?

 

Hand me down guys get upset ??
 

J~

[Jim Drago]

How about a great 10-12hc tire with 2/32" tread ?

 

Hand me down guys get upset ??
 

J~

kind of like field of dreams.. You build it and we will run it  ( Gladly)

[FTodaro]

It would be nice to know for sure to what extent the tire (SM7) is the issue on failures or the perception of failures, because I like the tire I like the company and support. I believe we have also increased the permissible offset on rims from 30 to 25mm, if I recall, over the same time period. It would be a shame if we propose a change when it's not a problem. If someone wants to propose a year long test I would volenteer

[BNaumann]

If someone wants to propose a year long test I would volenteer

You can't just test at Midohio.

[Johnny D]

Any tips you should or shouldn't do to keep you equipment from failing ?

 

J~

[Tom Sager]

Any tips you should or shouldn't do to keep you equipment from failing ?

 

J~

A lot of Niacin and B vitamins? 

[Jim Drago]

It would be nice to know for sure to what extent the tire (SM7) is the issue on failures or the perception of failures, because I like the tire I like the company and support. I believe we have also increased the permissible offset on rims from 30 to 25mm, if I recall, over the same time period. It would be a shame if we propose a change when it's not a problem. If someone wants to propose a year long test I would volenteer

Have you ever broke a subframe that wasn't hit?

How many hubs have you changed this year?

[Johnny D]

Any NASA guys with subframe failures ?

 

J~