825 replies to this topic

[dstevens]

Haha yup, when I add up what I really spent on my PTE car I'm convinced that some programmer at microsoft screwed up the SUM() function such that it operates more like the PRODUCT() function. 

 

Regardless, I'm quite certain that I can build a good chassis for <$15k.  Whether or not the car will be competitve will depend on if I I can build a motor that actually makes the power.  We'll see.  Not expecting to update this thread much until my build starts in a month or two, but check back then!

 

 

You can get a safe, reliable car on the track for that if you are equipped to do the work yourself.  It will be more hours and money to shake it down and sort it out to get the most of it.   You aren't going get a whiff of the podium at a Majors with a build with that budget and no pro motor or tuning.  Most of the folks here are pretty nice, they're being polite.  A few years back I built an entry level NA for right around 10 grand out of pocket with a beater donor.    Like you, all of it.   A lot of used, most new from either Mazdaspeed or a few of the aftermarket race dealers.  I'd built or crewed half a dozen or so stock cars prior and have everything but a lift.  I quit counting hours when it got over 100.  Probably more like  250 to 300 total.  A good chance it was more.  Getting a car safe and ready for the track, no problem.  Finishing with the big boys takes more than just building a car.  It's a lofty goal to podium at the Majors, just not too realistic with those resources.

 

You're into a 25k car to run consistently with the big boys.  No amount of fab chops or tools can change that.  The front runners you will be running with at big Majors are basically pros.  They have substantial investments in both time and money and it's fierce competition.   The engine guys have countless hours  and can do things with the drive train that a builder that doesn't build for SM regularly won't be able to do.   The knowledge and experience is priceless.  Unless you are a shoe now it's going to take a few years and some good track support to run with those guys.  One big take away racing about 15 years before I had to hang up my helmet is the investment in the car is the least of your costs over the years.  Most of these guys spend thousands a year to run.  To run competitively at a national level consistently you're into five figures not counting equipment and tools.  The extra 5-10k you don't spend now is going to be a drop in the bucket.  And by not spending it you aren't going to be any closer to the lead pack at a big race.

 

Buy Wheeler's book.   It will be the best $25 you'll spend at this point.  It helps shorten the learning curve specific to SM.

[Jim Drago]

You can get a safe, reliable car on the track for that if you are equipped to do the work yourself.  It will be more hours and money to shake it down and sort it out to get the most of it.   You aren't going get a whiff of the podium at a Majors with a build with that budget and no pro motor or tuning.  Most of the folks here are pretty nice, they're being polite.  A few years back I built an entry level NA for right around 10 grand out of pocket with a beater donor.    Like you, all of it.   A lot of used, most new from either Mazdaspeed or a few of the aftermarket race dealers.  I'd built or crewed half a dozen or so stock cars prior and have everything but a lift.  I quit counting hours when it got over 100.  Probably more like  250 to 300 total.  A good chance it was more.  Getting a car safe and ready for the track, no problem.  Finishing with the big boys takes more than just building a car.  It's a lofty goal to podium at the Majors, just not too realistic with those resources.
 
You're into a 25k car to run consistently with the big boys.  No amount of fab chops or tools can change that.  The front runners you will be running with at big Majors are basically pros.  They have substantial investments in both time and money and it's fierce competition.   The engine guys have countless hours  and can do things with the drive train that a builder that doesn't build for SM regularly won't be able to do.   The knowledge and experience is priceless.  Unless you are a shoe now it's going to take a few years and some good track support to run with those guys.  One big take away racing about 15 years before I had to hang up my helmet is the investment in the car is the least of your costs over the years.  Most of these guys spend thousands a year to run.  To run competitively at a national level consistently you're into five figures not counting equipment and tools.  The extra 5-10k you don't spend now is going to be a drop in the bucket.  And by not spending it you aren't going to be any closer to the lead pack at a big race.
 
Buy Wheeler's book.   It will be the best $25 you'll spend at this point.  It helps shorten the learning curve specific to SM.

Nice to see your post, miss reading your stuff. Hope all is well with you.
Jim

[Ron Alan]

My exact same thoughts ^^^  

[dstevens]

Thanks guys.  I've still got the car.  It's tech shed legal even...   

 

I dig what the OP is trying to do.  The 10-15k car is good for the sport even if they only run regionally.

[speedengineer]

As always, I appreciate the advice and tips many have given.  Keep em coming 

 

Just getting going on the build now - been busy getting the house ready for a long winter as well as installing a 2-post lift and getting a new welder set up.  So far, nothing too exciting.  I've been stripping that trunk and interior in preparation for the roll cage build.  Next steps will be to remove all the tar sound deadening and begin scraping seam sealer and removing paint where the cage footings will weld to. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the car apparently had a leaky soft top at one point in it's life.  That water caused the rear package tray and fuel tank access panel to be rather rusty.  Looks like I'm going to have to purchase new ones of those. 

 

 

 

On the previous race miata I built, I removed the tar sound deadening using a putty knife and heat gun, then a wire brush on an angle grinder removed the remaining residue.  This actually worked very well and didn't take long, it's just messy.  I've seen dry ice method, but it doesn't appear to come off much easier, and I'll end up dinging up the sheet metal with the hammer.  Does anyone have any other clever tricks for removing this stuff?

 

 

I also scored an OEM hard top for $550.  It does need a bit of work, bit of bondo on the trailing edge where it must have been dropped, and paint of course.  I'll probably have another $75-$125 into it at that point, but ~$650 isn't bad considering how much these go for now days!!!

 

 

 

As everyone has mentioned, difficult to compete at a majors level unless your car is making the HP, period.  I am well aware of this!  It's very possible that my motor build won't make the numbers that the pro builders can achieve, in which case I'll have to pony up some cash and buy one.  However, it's also possible that my motor will be right there.  Anyway, I've run some analysis using a lap simulator I wrote to determine the laptime sensitivity to HP at Mid-Ohio.  Hmm, Mid-Ohio   Anyway, it shows what we already knew, that you've got ZERO chance of running up front if you don't have the motor for it!  Eight hp per second means you can't afford to be down more than a couple from the rest of the drivers, or you will be having to drive all that much harder/better.  I also calculated the laptime weight sensitivity, just for fun. Being lazy setting your fuel load, thus crossing the scales at 20lbs more than you wanted, means you give up about a tenth of a second per lap. 

 

 

[dstevens]

To remove the deadening (or most anything else on your car) the Crud Thug is the schizzle.  From your shop it looks like the tool truck may stop there https://store.snapon...al-P644425.aspx   It's not cheap, if you don't use it a lot even used it's $200-300 it may not be worth it to you.  I borrowed one from the guy on the truck for a project.  They come up once a month or so on evilbay.

 

 I used an angle grinder and wheel on the chick car.  The Crud Thug is light years better though the consumables aren't cheap and it strained my 3hp single stage compressor.   It's faster by quite a bit and didn't seem to damage the metal.  The wheel left marks though I was using steel and brass may not do that.  The one mistake when doing the SM was removing it after I got the suspension on.  I stripped it to the tub to soda blast it and didn't think about simply turning it over on the garage floor (I don't have a rotisserie).  If you had a leaky top once you get the deadening off hopefully you won't see light through the floor panel like I did. 

[Johnny D]

To remove the deadening

J~

[dstevens]

That's a neat trick, I haven't seen that done before.   For less than $40 or so it's great shade tree hack.   At the day gig we use freeze spray to remove rubber and glue compounds when reconing speakers or replacing grill cloth.  Same thing, would have never thought to use dry ice.  Clever.  How do you get the spent ice it out?  Chop it up and wet vac it out?  With any of the grinders or rotary tool the mess is significant and it gets all over.  The deadening referred in my post was the underside.  I used a box of these http://www.roarksupp...5rapidstrip.htm on the SM and stock cars but they wear pretty quickly.

 

It would still need to be prepped for paint which is where a rotary tool comes handy as well as prepping other areas where the dry ice wouldn't work.  Even though the Eastwood cheapie tool is a couple hun, that's enough for a Fat Cat kit, exhaust or intake.  It's one of those things where if Harbor Fright had one for a hun it might make sense for more people.

[speedengineer]

That dry ice did work well for his application! 

 

The dry ice will sublimate out, leaving no liquid, so that part of cleanup is easy.  Not sure I like the idea of waiting for highly flammable isopropyl alcohol to evaporate though???

[dstevens]

Household isopropyl is completely safe, no worries about flash.  We use 99% isopropyl to clean the 3D printer frames we make after we cut them.  It's nowhere near something like acetone or MEK.

[FTodaro]

I used the dry ice method. the first time i used the cubes the second time i used blocks that i had to bust up. We do not have that much material remove so this is an easy job with Dry Ice IMO.  I used an air chisel and the dry ice. it took all of 20 min to do the entire car. The vibration from the air chisel speeds it up.

[speedengineer]

Didn't get a ton done tonight, had a friend over and helped him with a car he just bought.  He did brakes and oil and I mounted a set of snow tires. 

 

I did have time to play with the ignition cylinder lock.  Certainly the 'easy button' would have been drilling the 3/8" hole in the bottom and removing the spring. However, I wanted to do a more thorough job, and was curious how it all worked on the inside.  When I built my S2000 race car in 2012, I was able to easily disassemble the cylinder lock as it was held together with roll pins.  Mazda unfortunately used dowel pins pressed into blind holes for their cylinder, which is why my method was not the easiest.  Worth it, in my opinion though.

 

First pic, the ignition cylinder after removing from the column.  Simply used a chisel and hammer to break free the bolts holding it on, then spun them out by hand. 

 

Next, I drilled out all of the dowel pins using a dremel and small bits.  The trick here is to start with a small bit first (I used a ~0.040" bit first), then a 1/16", then full diameter of the dowel pin.  If I would have started with the full diameter bit, I'm guessing the bit would have wandered off of the steel dowel pin and into the soft aluminum pot metal.  There are six dowel pins in total that you need to remove.  Here is the assembly disassembled.  Careful, there are a couple of springs that will go flying if you aren't paying attention. 

 

 

By removing the guts, you can then completely remove the steering wheel lock mechanism, which consist of the spring, slider, and dead bolt.  The dead bolt attaches to the slider by slipping into it, sort of like a "T" slot.  Looking at it now, and considering that the slider is made of the same cheap pot metal aluminum, I'm wondering if putting a vice-grip slide hammer on the dead bolt wouldn't allow you to break the dead bolt off.  This could potentially be done with the ignition cylinder fully assembled, and perhaps could be an alternate way of disabling the steering wheel lock.  I don't have a spare lock, otherwise I would have tried it. 

 

All back together now.  I simply threaded in some short machine screws in place of the roll pins.  They 'self tapped' into the pot metal easily enough.  Works perfect.  The key action feels just like it did before. 

[38bfast]

Jason how are you going to offset your cost in tooling and shop supplies in the budgeted $15000 build? My point is it's not fair to say that you can build a SM for $15000 and not include the cost of equipment and shop supplies. It would be like me saying I could build a pro motor for $1000 but fail to mention the $300000 in tooling I have to do the job right. Or like saying I built the cage for $400 (cost of tubing) but not include the cost of the welder, gas, welding rod, welding helmet, tubing bender, chop saw, notcher, grinding wheels, plasma cutter and and and. Not to mention the square footage dedicated to the build.

The other thing that has to be accounted for is time. A good example is the smoking deal you got on the hard top. Scowering the inter web for a great deal, time to get it and bring it home, time dedicated to repair the flaws / paint. Point is you are trading man hours for cash dollars.

Don't get me wrong. Building a car is extremely rewarding and to some point therapeutic. We just don't want to mislead the entire scope of the build process.

Case in point Frank is in the process of his rebuild. I think (I could be wrong) that Frank has the means to pay someone to build the car for him but elects to endure the process himself. Trading time for hard cash spent. Or maybe therapy.

[speedengineer]

Jason how are you going to offset your cost in tooling and shop supplies in the budgeted $15000 build? My point is it's not fair to say that you can build a SM for $15000 and not include the cost of equipment and shop supplies. It would be like me saying I could build a pro motor for $1000 but fail to mention the $300000 in tooling I have to do the job right. Or like saying I built the cage for $400 (cost of tubing) but not include the cost of the welder, gas, welding rod, welding helmet, tubing bender, chop saw, notcher, grinding wheels, plasma cutter and and and. Not to mention the square footage dedicated to the build.

 

Ralph, I am including the cost of all shop supplies - grinding disks, cut off wheels, welding gas, filler rod, hole saws for the notcher, etc.  From that standpoint I am being completely fair.  Tools that I own don't count towards the build cost - they are used for many other things besides just building this car.  Some tools, such as the tubing bender, I'll be borrowing.

 

Now, the thing that isn't fair in some ways is that I am not counting my labor cost.  Certainly if you or another shop built the car, you need to get paid for your expertise and ~300 hours you'll have into it.  So yes, it may only cost me $15k to build the car, but if I contracted a shop to build me an identical car, it probably would cost $25k.

 

That said, one of the things I'm trying to prove is that a fast SM can [still] be built in your garage, by yourself, for minimal expense.  That's supposed to be the whole point of SM and why it was created in the first place - fun, close, spec racing for cheap build and operating costs!  Not all racers have the knowledge to build their own cage, car, motor, but plenty of people do have those skills.  Now, I may fail on my attempt to make a fast car for $15k and my car might be a turd or more expensive, but I want to try it.  My method of accounting expenses is fair considering what I am trying to accomplish here. 

[38bfast]

Jason I think a resonable expiation for a garage builder would be outsourcing all the fabricating / machine / engine work. Similar to how Frank is building his car. Certainly some people have more resources in their garage but I believe that would be more of an exception than the norm.

[speedengineer]

Jason I think a resonable expiation for a garage builder would be outsourcing all the fabricating / machine / engine work. Similar to how Frank is building his car. Certainly some people have more resources in their garage but I believe that would be more of an exception than the norm.

 

You're not wrong.  Some garage builders will need to outsource, and others won't.  If they need to, they'll have to add some money for that work.  I'm expecting my cage to be $750 after tubing, supplies, paint, etc.  They'd spend another $1500 probably.  I've budgeted $2k for my motor, they'd spend $6k.  So $5500 more than my build.  Granted, my build is currently slated to cost less than $15k.  $12,600, actually.  It may creep.  But my point is that even if a particular garage builder can't fab a cage or build their own motor, they can still get the same car for under $20. 

 

Re your edit to post 53 -> Building a car definitely isn't just about saving the money, we garage builders do it ourselves because we enjoy it!  If I didn't love the challenge, learning experience, 'therapy' of building my own car, then my donor would be sitting over in your shop right now and you'd be the one posting photos! 

[38bfast]

While we are on the subject the other factor not included is knowlage. I have had many garage builds come into my shop. The issue is they just don't know what they don't know. They don't have the lifetime of experience to know what works and what doesn't. Not trying to bash anyone we all have to learn somehow. But in many cases I have to undo what they did to then do it correctly witch is more costly than doing it once. Just one example is the crotch strap being mounted too far forward. Off the top of my head I have had to relocate a least 30 crotch belts over the years.

I have a car in the shop right now that is a garage build that the owner is starting over from scatch on. He has learned a lot on his original build was not up to standard and is giving it a second shot at it. What he thought was great when he built it turned out not to be that great when he got it on track. So now he is on version 2.


Hum version 2, V2. Now you know how my shop got named. Version 1 didn't work for you so now it's time for V2.

[speedengineer]

While we are on the subject the other factor not included is knowlage. I have had many garage builds come into my shop. The issue is they just don't know what they don't know. They don't have the lifetime of experience to know what works and what doesn't. Not trying to bash anyone we all have to learn somehow. But in many cases I have to undo what they did to then do it correctly witch is more costly than doing it once. Just one example is the crotch strap being mounted too far forward. Off the top of my head I have had to relocate a least 30 crotch belts over the years.

I have a car in the shop right now that is a garage build that the owner is starting over from scatch on. He has learned a lot on his original build was not up to standard and is giving it a second shot at it. What he thought was great when he built it turned out not to be that great when he got it on track. So now he is on version 2.


Hum version 2, V2. Now you know how my shop got named. Version 1 didn't work for you so now it's time for V2.

 

Haha.  I like it.  Version 1 is going to work for me though!     

You saw my first ever miata build and seemed to like it.  Actually, you did the first tech inspection on it.  Didn't find too much to complain about, and we all know how much of a perfectionist you are!     And now after 3 years racing with that chassis we are onto kohler_miata_v2.  new and improved.

 

Shit.  Ralph.  quit keeping me up late, and stop antagonizing!.  I need to go to sleep so I can get up for work....  to be continued

[38bfast]

Jason not trying to antagonize. Just trying to be fully transparent. Their is a lot that goes into a good build. Your providing a very good example of what it will take for the least amount of out of pocket expense. Trading hours for cash savings.

We can do a point / counter point through the build.

Like you are going to try your own engine build for $2000. If you can pull it off great but if you fail your out the $2000 + gaskets, fluids, Dyno time, remove and install and the $6000/7000 cost of a probuilt one. Risk you are willing to take. Obviously you feel confident or I don't think you would choose that path. The other issue is will it pass tech. I am very confident you believe it will, but as shown over the past year pro builders messed that up believing that they sent a compliant engine only to be found non compliant. What would seem easy seems no be more difficult than we would have thought.

So in effort of saving money on a engine build the end result could cost more that just going the pro built to start with. Hum V2 again

Risk vs reward. But if you don't try you will never know.

Jason I am not saying it can't be done. I just want to point out to those following the risk.

I try new things all the time. Actually I encourage it. I generaly dual path so if the test is negative plan B is ready to go as well. And yes that's the most costly way to do things. No risk only possible rewards. You can never improve without change. That's not just a race car thing.

[FTodaro]

Jason, Ralph, both making good points.

 

I think someone motivated, with tools and knowledge of how to proceed can save significant dollars doing a home build for sure. The exact dollar number depends on what you think the min. level of prep and equipment is.

 

I do this because i get satisfaction out of figuring it out for myself and the added benefit of knowing its done correctly, and as important, how to fix it if it fails.

 

I have made lots of mistake and done a few things more than once.

 

Lastly, regarding the cost of the build. I have done the math on my builds. I have spared no expense. In my recent blog post, I noted that when I rebuild the diff I used new Torsen guts from Mazda. My goals on the built to to achieve top prep and reliability. Ralph and I have paddocked close to each other over the years, I think he can confirm, i spend very little time at the track repairing my car, other than set up issues.

 

(Except if I am replacing a broken Diff from impact, lol)

 

Keep going Jason I would suggest converting this to a blog so others can find it and use it well after this thread gets buried.