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#21
Dave D.

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I am the chief of race tech for NASA Northest. To me, the vin is just a secondary number to identify the body shell. I am more interested in the numbers stamped to the cage. Sean, tech is not concerned with what weight or engine size is written in the Log Book or what size brake rotors are on the car,as that is information to be digested by the appropriate group leader whose responsibility is to make sure the vehicles racing in his own group is compliant to that particuler group. Tech (the Tech responsible for Log Books and annual inspections, not the Tech post race) does not get involved in checking for class legality only safety,I.E: seats, belts,cut-off switches,roll cage construction, etc....People swap out dashboards all the time as they cut the holes for the cage too large and get another dash!! 

 

   What would be so wrong with putting yellow highlighter in the book where engine size and weight is changed and make a notation on the line for the annual inspection??



#22
chris haldeman

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The re vin job on spec miatas has been done many times before too re class the car. I have personally seen a 99 turned into a vvt and multiple 1.6 cars turned into na 1.8's. A few years ago the rule requirement was lowered too only 1 vin being needed thus making this possible. Not only is this fine with me and anybody I talk too but a good idea for those that want a 1.8 or a vvt but have a good race chassis too start with
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#23
Todd Lamb

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How it is done is irrelevant to what it means for the class.

I imagine if you took a poll there would be 100 different opinions on how to re-classify the cars. This is the one the SMAC has chosen.

Let's discuss the important question: Do you think it is a good idea or not?
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#24
Keith Novak

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I haven't owned a 1.6 before but from what I've been told they have less chassis reinforcement (which you don't need with a cage) so they're inherently lighter.  Now you can add the weight back in where you want it...to the RHS and rear.

 

That would lead me to believe that if you want to build a fast 1.8 NA, start with a 1990 and go from there.


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#25
FTodaro

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Can i go back to the earlier post that says

 

CLUB RACING TECHNICAL BULLETIN

Spec Miata
1. #17818 (Ralph Provitz) Throttle Body/Restrictor Gaskets
In GCR Section 9.1.7.C.1.k.1.d., add the following language:
“....and must not be modified. An OE (or equivalent) gasket shall be used on both sides of the restrictor plate.”

 

Ralph is this saying that you are proposing that they adopt this rule?

 

If so, why?

 

Its just a waist of time? we need less rules not more, IMO


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#26
Johnny D

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Can i go back to the earlier post that says
 
CLUB RACING TECHNICAL BULLETIN

Spec Miata
1. #17818 (Ralph Provitz) Throttle Body/Restrictor Gaskets
In GCR Section 9.1.7.C.1.k.1.d., add the following language:
“....and must not be modified. An OE (or equivalent) gasket shall be used on both sides of the restrictor plate.”
 
Ralph is this saying that you are proposing that they adopt this rule?
 
If so, why?
 
Its just a waist of time? we need less rules not more, IMO


isn't the "CLUB RACING TECHNICAL BULLETIN" the new rule.

You need to obey.
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#27
38bfast

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Can i go back to the earlier post that says
 
CLUB RACING TECHNICAL BULLETIN
Spec Miata
1. #17818 (Ralph Provitz) Throttle Body/Restrictor Gaskets
In GCR Section 9.1.7.C.1.k.1.d., add the following language:
“....and must not be modified. An OE (or equivalent) gasket shall be used on both sides of the restrictor plate.”
 
Ralph is this saying that you are proposing that they adopt this rule?
 
If so, why?
 

Its just a waist of time? we need less rules not more, IMO


Its rule at this point. Request per tech. Frank are we really going to bitch about a gasket? Go back into the garage and work on your new car. :)
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#28
Ron Alan

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Its rule at this point. Request per tech. Frank are we really going to bitch about a gasket? Go back into the garage and work on your new car. :)


Can i go back to the earlier post that says
 
CLUB RACING TECHNICAL BULLETIN
Spec Miata
1. #17818 (Ralph Provitz) Throttle Body/Restrictor Gaskets
In GCR Section 9.1.7.C.1.k.1.d., add the following language:
“....and must not be modified. An OE (or equivalent) gasket shall be used on both sides of the restrictor plate.”
 
Ralph is this saying that you are proposing that they adopt this rule?
 
If so, why?
 
Its just a waist of time? we need less rules not more, IMO


Late to the party after realizing for 3 weeks my computer was set on "view only threads I have participated in" DOH!

I remember this came up awhile back in tech and someone did or was going to get DQ'ed? How long has a restrictor plate been used in SM? Now all of a sudden after years of 1 or no gasket we have to have 2??? WHY?? What is the thought process here...have we all been gaining some sort of advantage? Please point me to the explanation behind this someone...
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#29
ChrisA

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Its rule at this point. Request per tech. Frank are we really going to bitch about a gasket? Go back into the garage and work on your new car. :)

 

I will say the rule is stupid. The RP acts like a gasket itself. While the cost of adding another gasket is negligible, it is just a ridiculous addition of fluff to the rules set.


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#30
38bfast

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At the runoffs John did find that cars showed signs of leaking on cars that just had the plate but no gaskets. So saying that the restrictor plate acts as a gasket is not correct. The leak was not enough to keep the car running when the intake track was plugged. The rules are clear that no leak is allowed. John agreed to not pursue it at the runoffs but did want it addresses in the future. From an OE engineering point of view when adding the plate two gaskets would be required to ensure a good seal. Rember that the OEs don't add parts to a car that they don't feel are required.

Personally I have had idle issues with cars that were not running gaskets. Adding the gaskets cured the problem. Futher evidence that a leak can exist when not running gaskets.

Hope that explains it. Does not mean you are going to like it but at the least I hope you will understand the 'why".

Personally I have no issue with it whatsoever. Much bigger fish to fry.

Then again it might be a long winter and need something to talk about on the forum. :)
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#31
Ron Alan

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Fair enough...but still dumb!


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#32
Dave D.

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Maybe some were complaining because they felt like they now lost some advantage? Run the engine super rich and allow an air leak ?? Anyone do any back to back dyno pulls with and without the second gasket?

     To anyone that thinks an 1/8in uncoated aluminum plate is a gasket, they're wrong, unless you tourque the throttle body down to something like 100ftlbs to get some crush on it,it will not seal.



#33
FTodaro

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Its rule at this point. Request per tech. Frank are we really going to bitch about a gasket? Go back into the garage and work on your new car. :)

Ralph, i understand what happened at the Runoffs. Like others who have posted, we should reject rules that we feel are just a waist of time and at some point down the road could inadvertently punish someone when it really does not change performance.

 

I am not pointing a finger at you.

 

We had to go back and rewrite the tape on the radiator rule, we should do it to this one also.


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#34
Caveman-kwebb99

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Ralph, i understand what happened at the Runoffs. Like others who have posted, we should reject rules that we feel are just a waist of time and at some point down the road could inadvertently punish someone when it really does not change performance.

 

I am not pointing a finger at you.

 

We had to go back and rewrite the tape on the radiator rule, we should do it to this one also.

 

Agree letter written, having a rule just to have a rule IMO is not usefull.


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#35
Ron Alan

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Maybe some were complaining because they felt like they now lost some advantage? Run the engine super rich and allow an air leak ?? Anyone do any back to back dyno pulls with and without the second gasket?

     To anyone that thinks an 1/8in uncoated aluminum plate is a gasket, they're wrong, unless you tourque the throttle body down to something like 100ftlbs to get some crush on it,it will not seal.

You have tested? Please share your results.

 

Cars dont run well with a vacuum leak. Been running a RP with 1 gasket for 6 years...always spray(brake cleaner) around the entire intake manifold after installing a motor and or suspect something is amiss. Never once have i found a leak at the TB. Found a bad injector O-ring the other day...glad i did on a new motor!

 

Maybe I've got that one in a million perfectly machined TB and RP? I would say if someone had a vacuum leak at the TB, chances are it was not by accident. 2 gaskets wont change this! And if i'm wrong, someone just blew the lid off the best kept secret in SM history...shit...this must be why the 99 has dominated??


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#36
Dave D.

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You have tested? Please share your results.

 

Cars dont run well with a vacuum leak. Been running a RP with 1 gasket for 6 years...always spray(brake cleaner) around the entire intake manifold after installing a motor and or suspect something is amiss. Never once have i found a leak at the TB. Found a bad injector O-ring the other day...glad i did on a new motor!

 

Maybe I've got that one in a million perfectly machined TB and RP? I would say if someone had a vacuum leak at the TB, chances are it was not by accident. 2 gaskets wont change this! And if i'm wrong, someone just blew the lid off the best kept secret in SM history...shit...this must be why the 99 has dominated??

Not starting an argument or pi$$^#@ contest at all. I'm just saying that as a master tech for over 20 years, I just never even thought of using a gasket on 1 side only, there have been spacer plates on production cars for years and I've always seen gaskets on both sides. Any gasket that was metal was either very thin or a soft alloy that crushed to cause a seal. The only places manufacturers would put metal to metal flanges together without a gasket/or sealant was on the exhaust side. I really don't think this is dumb. You guys are complaining about making a rule for the sake of a rule are the same guys that want to make the extra work of issuing new log books to cars with a 1.8 swap because they feel the VIN  number should change. That's an unnecessary waste of time. 



#37
Caveman-kwebb99

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Not starting an argument or pi$$^#@ contest at all. I'm just saying that as a master tech for over 20 years, I just never even thought of using a gasket on 1 side only, there have been spacer plates on production cars for years and I've always seen gaskets on both sides. Any gasket that was metal was either very thin or a soft alloy that crushed to cause a seal. The only places manufacturers would put metal to metal flanges together without a gasket/or sealant was on the exhaust side. I really don't think this is dumb. You guys are complaining about making a rule for the sake of a rule are the same guys that want to make the extra work of issuing new log books to cars with a 1.8 swap because they feel the VIN  number should change. That's an unnecessary waste of time.


Totally false I am complaining about making a rule for rules sake just because the CCC ask for the rule...

Never did I or anyone else that thinks the gasket rule is bs has said anything about a new log book.

I could care less if you want to make your 2005 car into a 91 as long as you make all the appropriate changes. I think the body swaps are no big deal and I couldn't care less if we even have a stupid log book, the only person that cares about a log book imo is a tech guy because he has always had to look at one, as for wheelers argument about notations in a log book imo that only happens 1 in 100 incidences so who cares. I have lost log books and replaced had them give me new one and didn't even say replacement on it.

If the rule is being made to keep a performance issue from cropping up then OK but to make a rule because a CCC ask for a rule is a waist of the smac time imo.

Anyone feel free to dyno with rp no gasket and then put in gasket and tell me the difference. I have raced since 2010 without a gasket never failed a stall test it any other test.

I did fail spelling in 1st grade though...

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#38
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Are some folks using their selective reading capabilities with respective to the backup info from the CCC for having a gasket on each side of the RP. Please hit the post re-read  button and re-read a couple SMAC posts.


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#39
Jim Drago

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Fair enough...but still dumb!

+ 1000
Anyone claiming some mysterious gain at ANY level without two gaskets has not tested it. The rule was clear.. No air can bypass the restrictor. Run the gasket, don't run the gasket, who cares. If the car doesn't stall immediately and you have no gasket. Now you can be dq'ed for it. It's up to you.

The CCC first used there stall test equipment on my car at sprints this year and it sucked the intake tube sides to each other immediately with NO gasket on either side. The gaskets nor the rule is/was needed. Nothing but a PITA, not a big deal, but a PITA

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#40
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+ 1000
Anyone claiming some mysterious gain at ANY level without two gaskets has not tested it. The rule was clear.. No air can bypass the restrictor. Run the gasket, don't run the gasket, who cares. If the car doesn't stall immediately and you have no gasket. Now you can be dq'ed for it. It's up to you.

The CCC first used there stall test equipment on my car at sprints this year and it sucked the intake tube sides to each other immediately with NO gasket on either side. The gaskets nor the rule is/was needed. Nothing but a PITA, not a big deal, but a PITA

Exactly this!!

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