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Poll: Make Extended Lower Ball Joints Legal? (52 member(s) have cast votes)

As eccentric upper bushings are legal to gain negative camber, should the forged Extended Lower Ball Joints from Bauer Ltd. be legal as well?

  1. YES! They're easy to install and make my car handle great, and they also remove a potential gray area in the rules. (11 votes [21.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.15%

  2. NO! Lets just leave things the way they are. (41 votes [78.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 78.85%

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#1
cordycord

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Hi guys,

 

You may or may not have heard that a new part is available for the 25 year old Miata.  The Extended Lower Ball Joints are forged  bits that allow for more negative camber in front by pushing the bottom of the hub out just a bit.  At stock ride height, the range is about -.5 to -3.5, with higher negative camber than those numbers available at lower than stock ride heights.  The benefits for SM are obvious, and include getting ideal negative camber AND max caster, hitting your negative camber and even being able to raise the ride height a bit, and using a part that costs less than the OEM equivalent.

 

NASA has approved these for use in Spec Miata, Super Miata, and they're also looking at them in the autocross classes, although those classes are getting a thorough review so the jury is still out.

 

SCCA is still looking at the option of using the ELBJ's, and we're hoping that input from the racers will help with the decision.  Hence the poll.

 

Please give us your opinion on the poll and let us send the information to SCCA prior to their next rules meeting on January 5th.  These parts are being sold by Flyin' Miata, V8 Roadsters, 949 Racing, Goodwin Racing, Miata Roadster and the supplier, Bauer Limited Production, maker of the Catfish.

 

 

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#2
Johnny D

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http://mazdaracers.c...er-ball-joints/

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#3
FTodaro

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I voted No, but my opinion is, if your going to add multiple options then it should be open.


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#4
wheel

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Impartially worded poll.


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#5
Todd Lamb

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The SMAC already voted against this. We have a workable solution with the bushings and there is no need for another solution that very likely will cause compliance issues with the track width. NASA should not have approved this either.
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Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

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#6
Jim Drago

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I don't see the need and voted no as well. We have a solution that works. I think Nasa should not have allowed either.


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#7
davew

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I am not neccesarily against them. I am against approving them before they are readily available, tested and proven to be beneficial. We jumped the gun on Fat Cats years ago (demand far exceded supply) and on the offset bushing (the Whiteline brand had been discontinued by the manufacturer and there was no inventory in the country).

 

In theory the ELBJ's are better than the offset bushings IMHO, but they need testing. My vote would be "Not at this time, but reserve the right to change my mind later".

 

Dave


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#8
Jim Drago

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I am not neccesarily against them. I am against approving them before they are readily available, tested and proven to be beneficial. We jumped the gun on Fat Cats years ago (demand far exceded supply) and on the offset bushing (the Whiteline brand had been discontinued by the manufacturer and there was no inventory in the country).

 

In theory the ELBJ's are better than the offset bushings IMHO, but they need testing. My vote would be "Not at this time, but reserve the right to change my mind later".

 

Dave

Whether or not they are 'better" is debatable for sure.. Whether we need them or not however is not.  We have a fix in place for over a year with seemingly no problems. I see no need to look further unless problems arise with the approved fix that we already have. 

Jim 


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#9
38bfast

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Timing is everything. 


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#10
cordycord

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Yes, timing isn't the best.  But the part is far easier to install and police than bushings, and adjusting camber at the lower a-arms is the proper way to do it.  If the cat's out of the bag and the eccentrics have already been approved, it seems like a natural to approve these as well.  But I'm biased. :)  



#11
Johnny D

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So first you bent the spindles to get the camber you wanted.
Then came the offset bushings so everyone could do it.
Now the ball joint.

What's the advantage/disadvantage of just having the rule open to achieve the camber as long as there's no other benefit?
And what might that be?

J~
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#12
38bfast

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Johnny when things are left open things can get out of hand. Someone figure out a way to get more than just camber
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Ralph Provitz
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#13
Johnny D

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Johnny when things are left open things can get out of hand. Someone figure out a way to get more than just camber


Isn't that a given with everything?
Somebody trying a different durometer plastic offset bushing?

But aren't we really talking about a possible better geometry suspension, but it's still limited to track width.
Better/more caster?

And tech is already working on their ball joint go/no go gauge documentation, and for what, because the guy had the same camber that everyone else has?

Just saying.
I wouldn't want to dilute the SCCA/NASA independence pissing contest.

Carry on.
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#14
cordycord

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So first you bent the spindles to get the camber you wanted.
Then came the offset bushings so everyone could do it.
Now the ball joint.

What's the advantage/disadvantage of just having the rule open to achieve the camber as long as there's no other benefit?
And what might that be?

J~

The benefit is the ease of use installing them, that they wouldn't "bump" out of alignment from hard use, and that you're adjusting from the lower a-arm and not the upper.  And choice.  Now you'd have a choice, and as a consumer choice is not a bad thing.  From a rules standpoint, the ELBJ's all have laser etched logos on them that would be pretty hard to reproduce, and wouldn't come off with solvent.  From a safety standpoint, they're forged from an ISO 9001 company.  These will be in the market place this year, and they will be raced in NASA, and they are curing a known issue with the Miata.  Aside from taking the rules into account, they're a great quality part.  A set is going out to Jim Drago, and I hope to get his unvarnished opinion of the parts, separate from the rules.



#15
38bfast

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Actually from a engineering point of view the lower ball joint has the highest stress point of the front suspension. By moving its moment outboard further increases that loading. Currently we have seen failures with the OE Mazda part. Maybe the metallurgy is better in these new parts to endure the higher loads.

 

Just for reference the failure we have been seeing in at the shaft as it intersects the spindle. I have personally seen this failure about 2 dozen times. When the failure occurs it is catastrophic and results in loss of vehicle control. 

 

A link to my in car perspective of the failure back in the day. 

 

 

 

What has been done on the new part to prevent this failure? 


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#16
Jim Drago

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A set is going out to Jim Drago, and I hope to get his unvarnished opinion of the parts, separate from the rules.

I will give a fair assessment of the part, but as said above, my opinion on the rule has already been posted above and will remain unchanged.


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#17
davew

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I also have some coming. I will test them when we get back to local racing in April.

 

Again, until any product is tested, proven and known to have sufficient inventory available, it should not be approved.

 

dave


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#18
Ron Alan

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Actually from a engineering point of view the lower ball joint has the highest stress point of the front suspension. By moving its moment outboard further increases that loading. Currently we have seen failures with the OE Mazda part. Maybe the metallurgy is better in these new parts to endure the higher loads.

 

Just for reference the failure we have been seeing in at the shaft as it intersects the spindle. I have personally seen this failure about 2 dozen times. When the failure occurs it is catastrophic and results in loss of vehicle control. 

 

A link to my in car perspective of the failure back in the day. 

 

 

 

What has been done on the new part to prevent this failure? 

Curious Ralph where the failure occurred in the ball joint? The portion that bolts to the spindle or the portion that bolts in the LCA?

2 dozen? Man...must be an East coast thing :)

Granted...you see much more than cars in the paddock...


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#19
Bench Racer

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2 dozen? Man...must be an East coast thing :)

Come on Ron, cut the guy some slack, he said "about 2 dozen". :rotfl:


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#20
Jim Drago

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Man...must be an East coast thing :)

Road America eats them... We put on new before every Sprints and every Runoffs

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