39 replies to this topic

[ChrisA]

Yep right around $500 including 5 year sub.

The old ones will continue to work fine and do not need to be registered. But they will be like gold for a while.

 

 

Gold... Excellent!

(In my best Monty Burns voice)

[Steve Scheifler]

I just ordered another of the old version, it shipped today. Their new one is supposed to provide the option for an in-car display and more analysis options, but I won't be surprised if that requires an additional subscription. And frankly, having one of the worst websites ever, even after all these years, and all the other software issues, I have little confidence in their software developers so I'm not eager to be an early adopter.

[Jim Drago]

I just ordered another of the old version, it shipped today. Their new one is supposed to provide the option for an in-car display and more analysis options, but I won't be surprised if that requires an additional subscription. And frankly, having one of the worst websites ever, even after all these years, and all the other software issues, I have little confidence in their software developers so I'm not eager to be an early adopter.

+1000!

[Brian Ghidinelli]

MyLaps transponder technology does have a patent. IIRC, it expires soon-ish now so China selling transponders will happen and it will be some kind of software arms race to prevent them.

 

The new features they tout in the email, based on my conversation with them at PRI, will not be free. The over-the-air updates will require additional hardware from the organization (so... unlikely for most regional races to support it) plus a receiver for your car and will cost 100-200/year/extra.  That was just an 'off the cuff' idea provided to me at PRI so don't take it as solid, but it won't be something like $10/year for getting your data on your onboard display.

 

You're (currently) better off putting a phone in your car with race monitor ($5/year, iffy results) or RaceHero (free + accurate results).

[dstevens]

Here are all the AMB patents...  https://www.google.c....V."&gws_rd=ssl  Looks like another seven years or so on one of the transponder pickup patents.  http://www.google.com/patents/US6864829

 

Even with the patent on the process the firmware is  under copyright.   We've been working with contract PCBA houses in Shenzhen for the last few years.  The hardware cloners can make the parts but with the subscription model and being able to update transponder firmware it's going to be difficult for them to keep up.  Same with updates for Orbits.  The cloners typically take something that can be easily replicated and churn them out.  I don't know that it's going to become an arms race as I don't see them putting the effort into making it work.  The market isn't big enough.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

I thought the original patent on the timing piece was considerably older when I looked previously. The subscription piece isn't an issue because you would emulate a red-style transponder which doesn't require a subscription (and still works with X2 decoders). 7 years is definitely ample time to move everyone onto their subscription plans though.  

[dstevens]

I thought the original patent on the timing piece was considerably older when I looked previously. The subscription piece isn't an issue because you would emulate a red-style transponder which doesn't require a subscription (and still works with X2 decoders). 7 years is definitely ample time to move everyone onto their subscription plans though.  

That's a good point though I still don't see the cloners getting involved.  I rather see someone like you or Race Monitor, someone already in the space coming up with something that's either not induction loop based or is changed just enough so it clears the patent.  Though engineering a like solution around the patent is likely to invoke a patent fight.  

 

With the advent of the maker scene, low cost prototyping and rapid expansion of low cost, small volume houses in Shenzhen the barriers to entry are much lower than they were when AMB first started.  

There is UHF RFID right now that may be able to be used for this as well as base technologies where you could roll your own.

 

As you're aware software dev has advanced just as rapidly (if not more) to the point where I think that if the right people put the right package together for the right price you may be able to start moving some people over to a new system.

[Erik Hardy]

Just want to ask a few questions and bring this back up, before derailing the mx5 laguna thread.

 

Are tracks satisfied with current timing systems? Reluctant to change? Looking for something new? Arbitrary forced to use mylaps due to the sanctioning bodies? Anybody have any experience on the track portion of timing/scoring/

 

I know plenty of people who are pissed off about the subsciption fees, product quality, and lack of software/website support....and "us" users are being given the strangle due to a monopoly....but that business model can only last soo long...

 

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to publicly speak. 

[Brandon]

There's another portion of the T&S equation that's being forgotten: the "hooks" (integration/APIs) between the registration, time capture, then upload to the sanctioning bodies of the results/data.

It's in the middleware where I think you'll find the most leverage in getting changes done.

 

Find a way to utilize the existing physical infrastructure (timing loops and transponders) and still get our data captured & uploaded and I don't think you'll get any complaints from competitors on how that's done or what we need to possess to accomplish it (provided we already have it).

[john23]

I have one of the mylaps with the race key set up I wired it up the way they said
and they said at the track I had no signal. They told me to swap the wires and then I had a signal but the race key did not work.
Can anyone tell me the real way to hook it up please
 
   thanks
  John

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Just want to ask a few questions and bring this back up, before derailing the mx5 laguna thread.

 

Are tracks satisfied with current timing systems? Reluctant to change? Looking for something new? Arbitrary forced to use mylaps due to the sanctioning bodies? Anybody have any experience on the track portion of timing/scoring/

 

I know plenty of people who are pissed off about the subsciption fees, product quality, and lack of software/website support....and "us" users are being given the strangle due to a monopoly....but that business model can only last soo long...

 

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to publicly speak. 

 

Being deep in this stuff, I'll offer a couple of observations on build vs. buy:

 

• MyLaps is reliable. Ok, maybe the new transponders are having some setup issues, but by and large, it works reliably. Thousands of races get timed around the world without a hiccup and that is thanks to years of in-the-field development. Is their software and hardware perfect? Far from it, but you get your race results pretty much instantly after a session is over (minus protests and impound...) and that's why we pay money to go racing.
• Alternative technologies have a lot of issues. In some testing I'm aware of (but not that I conducted), MyLaps system is not accurate to 0.001. This should surprise nobody if you stop to think about it but know that if you beat someone by a few ms, it's debatable who really won. GPS, UHF, RFID, video scanning, etc - all of these come with similar tradeoffs but, in general, slightly less absolute accuracy. Many of these alternatives would also change who brings what to the track. Right now you install a $50 cable at start/finish once, and an organization shows up with a little box and plugs in. If you go to almost any other system, at least initially, you have a much different implementation footprint. Either the organization is hauling around a lot of gear such as RFID antennas which require a network or cabling and some expertise to setup, or you need the drivers to do something (e.g., all run some kind of a GPS based system that reports to the cloud). And if you go wireless, you're now counting on either relatively expensive/complex local area networks or the unreliable/nonexistent public cellular networks. There is a sliding scale between low cost and high reliability/accuracy and other than the $500 transponders, the rest of the MyLaps infrastructure is pretty good.  As I mentioned above, the local area UHF network that MyLaps uses to offer onboard services is reported to be a $100-200/year fee per driver plus hardware the organization has to purchase and setup. 
• The market is just not that big.  So that deters (serious, qualified) people from making the necessary investment. It may seem like OMG THERE ARE SOOOO MANY RACES, but I know how many people go to how many races a year and it isn't that many in the big picture. Dstevens is spot on about the maker movement and low cost manufacturing but there is a gap between getting something in the market that early adopters can use and getting something that any weekend volunteer can pick up off the shelf and make work reliably. You might have seen the leader lights we did at the 25 Hour (http://blog.racehero...-thunderhill/)? It connected a bluetooth LED board with an Android app that received data from RaceHero and displayed the position on the side of the car like you see in IMSA. Except we built it for about $75 and elbow grease. The IMSA systems cost (IIRC) around $1250. That's the gap between proof of concept and marketable product. It's also why a transponder costs $500 when the manufacturing costs are $100 or less.

 

Finally, one anecdote. We're onboarding a motorcycle racing group to MotorsportReg.com who has been using a different timing system. It uses MyLaps transponder and decoders but different software. They have had tons of problems with it. It turns out (complex) software is hard. I haven't used it so I can't say if the problems are with the software or the users, but at the end of the day, after several years of using it, they can't consistently generate accurate results after each race so they have been forced to ALSO run MyLaps software in parallel. You can imagine the extra staffing, costs, overhead, etc. Imagine you ultimately need a product team of half a dozen developers which will run you $500k-1MM/year depending on where you're located and you need to sell a LOT of product just to pay for development before you do any sales and marketing. Sounds like a good time to introduce a subscription service.

 

Moral of the story? The first 50% of solving the problem could be done quickly and cheaply, but to get a real product to market AND compete with an entrenched player like MyLaps is tough. Especially if once you totally dominated the market, you're simply not talking about that much money. Unless you charge what MyLaps charges. And now we're back to square one.

 

There's a lot of things about MyLaps that can be done better (cue, RaceHero.io) but I have respect for what they've built.

[Tom Hampton]

^^^--- Spot on.

[davew]

I think one of their biggest problems is the directions. Having written directions for master switch kits and other SM items that Advanced sells, plus the SM constructors guide, I can tell you that putting onto paper ANY instructions are a difficult thing to do. Anyone putting together a kids toy on Christmas eve knows how poorly most instructions are written. Assembling the toy is easy. Understanding the instructions is hard.

 

I had a lengthy conversation with the rep from mylaps/amb at the PRI show last year. Ann says I attacked him. As usual, a tech company sent a techy as a sales rep. Rather than someone who understood the industry. The kid was nice and polite but had never been to a racetrack. Never realised that internet/cell service was typically poor at best. I feel this sytem will be a problem for a couple years, untill they get the bugs worked out. And, we get comfortable with the system.

 

I commend people like Brian, who have developed a technology that is simple to use, reliable and user friendly. The old transponder system was just that. I hope in time the new system will be that way also.

 

dave

[Tom Hampton]

I have spent my entire engineering career (er...gulp, 25-ish years now?!) writing instructions of one flavor or another.  From test procedures of various kinds, to user's manuals, to training presentations, to engineering process and work instructions, and probably 10 or 15 other types of step-by-step type of material for various audiences.  The primary rule?...There is ALWAYS a better idiot! 

 

I've also been the techy at the trade show time-after-time.  Heck, 25 years in, and I still am.  Maybe I've learned to set my geekiness aside (or hide it better).  Trust me...we don't want to be there anymore than you want us there.  We know its not our thing---we don't like dealing with "normal" people any more than you like dealing with us.  :-)  But, the marketing / sales types aren't competent enough to operate whatever the gizmo is...and typically its only a prototype that needs a kick-in-the-pants from its master every now and again. 

[Johnny D]

I don't understand why if you have a GPS based system (traqmate, whatever) telling you I'm off .001 sec in turn 3 why it can't be combined with all the other drivers and spit out the results.

Or is that all the software, $$$ and 1000's are man hours you guys are talking about that makes this so complicated ?

[davew]

"and typically its only a prototype that needs a kick-in-the-pants from its master every now and again. "

 

Tom, are you calling me a prototype???????

[Tom Hampton]

Tom, are you calling me a prototype???????

Well, no...guys your age are well past the prototype stage. ;-)

[davew]

But I still need a kick start every once in a while

[Rob Burgoon]

I don't understand why if you have a GPS based system (traqmate, whatever) telling you I'm off .001 sec in turn 3 why it can't be combined with all the other drivers and spit out the results.

Or is that all the software, $$$ and 1000's are man hours you guys are talking about that makes this so complicated ?

 

Stockholm syndrome.

[Tom Hampton]

Don't we all...