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#41
dstevens

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Not sure how me pointing out your hipocracy proves your point. If you read the legal brief provided to the Le Mons group it is very clear the EPA is using a broad sword to give a hair cut to the aftermarket industry and if they take out auto racing in the process what do they care. I promise if you don't write your representatives this will become the law and we will find out if they are willing to enforce. Not worth the risk in my opinion as it would be very hard to argue once it's in place. A simple letter to your rep and senator will go a lot further than all the law suits filed after the fact. Especially with the elections coming up in November.

 

The restriction against removing emissions equipment on street cars even those converted to race cars has been in place for a few decades. The part that is germane to my comment about opinions on the Internet is when you come to the forum and start going ape shit in inverse proportion to the actual facts.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.  It doesn't work like that.  It's an issue that needs to be resolved.  It should have been addressed 20 years ago.

 

SEMA doesn't care about your racing.  SEMA cares about the members being able to sell non compliant mods for people to put on street cars.  They didn't say anything when the enforcement was directed at the user but now when the enforcement effort is directed toward the suppliers it takes all the priority of Sheriff Bart coming to take Rock Ridge's white women.  Were SEMA concerned about your racing they would have beat this drum a few decades ago.

 

This is an EPA rule making process.  Unless Congress passes a law specifically prohibiting what the reg is to implement our reps really don't have much of a say.  Do you really think they'll get something drafted, through committee, onto the floor, passed and on the President's desk by July?  A committee can convene a panel but that doesn't have the effect of the rule of law.  It's a glorified press conference to give the illusion something is being done.  The best choice is to become involved in the rules making process.  The agencies are usually required by law to get comment from the public on any new rule implementations or changes to existing rules.  Certainly write your reps but at this point commenting on the rule during the comment period and having a threat of litigation is much better leverage.  It's an election year, nothing is getting done until the next Congress convenes in January 2017.  The EPA has started to walk back some of the comments and proposals with regards to track only cars and I'd guess they'll work some sort of compromise where you can race a track only car.  That's not really what SEMA wants, though.  The members won't make money selling to racers only, they need to sell to everyone.  The tougher fight will be for the street parts that are clearly used to bypass emissions requirements.    SEMA wants to piggyback on your racing in order for the members to keep selling parts to cheat emissions.



#42
Rob Burgoon

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The restriction against removing emissions equipment on street cars even those converted to race cars has been in place for a few decades. 

 

 

 

Was it though?  Sounds like "off road use" is getting an exciting new narrow definition.


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#43
mhiggins10

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The restriction against removing emissions equipment on street cars even those converted to race cars has been in place for a few decades. The part that is germane to my comment about opinions on the Internet is when you come to the forum and start going ape shit in inverse proportion to the actual facts.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.  It doesn't work like that.  It's an issue that needs to be resolved.  It should have been addressed 20 years ago.

 

SEMA doesn't care about your racing.  SEMA cares about the members being able to sell non compliant mods for people to put on street cars.  They didn't say anything when the enforcement was directed at the user but now when the enforcement effort is directed toward the suppliers it takes all the priority of Sheriff Bart coming to take Rock Ridge's white women.  Were SEMA concerned about your racing they would have beat this drum a few decades ago.

 

This is an EPA rule making process.  Unless Congress passes a law specifically prohibiting what the reg is to implement our reps really don't have much of a say.  Do you really think they'll get something drafted, through committee, onto the floor, passed and on the President's desk by July?  A committee can convene a panel but that doesn't have the effect of the rule of law.  It's a glorified press conference to give the illusion something is being done.  The best choice is to become involved in the rules making process.  The agencies are usually required by law to get comment from the public on any new rule implementations or changes to existing rules.  Certainly write your reps but at this point commenting on the rule during the comment period and having a threat of litigation is much better leverage.  It's an election year, nothing is getting done until the next Congress convenes in January 2017.  The EPA has started to walk back some of the comments and proposals with regards to track only cars and I'd guess they'll work some sort of compromise where you can race a track only car.  That's not really what SEMA wants, though.  The members won't make money selling to racers only, they need to sell to everyone.  The tougher fight will be for the street parts that are clearly used to bypass emissions requirements.    SEMA wants to piggyback on your racing in order for the members to keep selling parts to cheat emissions.

 

They can take my BullyDog from my jacked up F350 after I've exhausted the extended magazines in my modified AR15s!  Roll Coal!


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#44
MPR22

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The restriction against removing emissions equipment on street cars even those converted to race cars has been in place for a few decades. The part that is germane to my comment about opinions on the Internet is when you come to the forum and start going ape shit in inverse proportion to the actual facts.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.  It doesn't work like that.  It's an issue that needs to be resolved.  It should have been addressed 20 years ago.
 
SEMA doesn't care about your racing.  SEMA cares about the members being able to sell non compliant mods for people to put on street cars.  They didn't say anything when the enforcement was directed at the user but now when the enforcement effort is directed toward the suppliers it takes all the priority of Sheriff Bart coming to take Rock Ridge's white women.  Were SEMA concerned about your racing they would have beat this drum a few decades ago.
 
This is an EPA rule making process.  Unless Congress passes a law specifically prohibiting what the reg is to implement our reps really don't have much of a say.  Do you really think they'll get something drafted, through committee, onto the floor, passed and on the President's desk by July?  A committee can convene a panel but that doesn't have the effect of the rule of law.  It's a glorified press conference to give the illusion something is being done.  The best choice is to become involved in the rules making process.  The agencies are usually required by law to get comment from the public on any new rule implementations or changes to existing rules.  Certainly write your reps but at this point commenting on the rule during the comment period and having a threat of litigation is much better leverage.  It's an election year, nothing is getting done until the next Congress convenes in January 2017.  The EPA has started to walk back some of the comments and proposals with regards to track only cars and I'd guess they'll work some sort of compromise where you can race a track only car.  That's not really what SEMA wants, though.  The members won't make money selling to racers only, they need to sell to everyone.  The tougher fight will be for the street parts that are clearly used to bypass emissions requirements.    SEMA wants to piggyback on your racing in order for the members to keep selling parts to cheat emissions.




Feel free to show me in any post on this subject where I went ape shit. I commented on the EPA constantly increasing its reach and that we should beware of what might come of it. My assertion was further supported by the attorneys legal brief. I have never said anything regarding SEMAs agenda or how it aligns with ours. Off-road vehicles have always been treated differently and that is what is being targeted with this latest round. I understand what they are going after but we may very well be affected and you can certainly sit by and do nothing or you can ask a rep to narrow the scope. It takes half the time it took you write the drivel above.
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#45
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Sheesh, you guys (Dave and MPR) are fun to watch. No ones going to back down. Like George Clooney and Don Cheadle in the fight club scene of "Out of Sight" :)

I know both of you personally of course (and like you both). MPR, you kinda did jump in and go after the EPA aggressively without having read the documents. On the other hand I know what you do for a living and how your land use expertise flavors your understanding of the EPA and their practice. Dave you can't abide what you see as an overreaching post. It burns you. Must be your site moderating background. Anyway I also know your understanding of SEMA motivations.

But keep going, it's entertaining!

For me, I think you both have valuable arguments.

While I'm not (yet) looking for a wild refuge to occupy, I think this is an issue for us to pay attention to. It is unlikely that the EPA will suddenly choose to make raids on SCCA and NASA events - they won't need to. All that needs to happen is for them to prosecute a few suppliers and grassroots racing will shift to underground racing.

Writing to representatives? I can't imagine how this would hurt but this is not their vote, it's a regulation change of the EPA which they run, not congress. Here is how it works: http://www.epa.gov/l...ulatory-process
This is very similar to the ISO engineering standards processes that I get involved in. The governing body says there needs to be a standard and then votes to pass it, then the details of the standard are worked out by a working group with public viewing as part of the process. Make no mistake, the EPA manages the game, but the public input has influence - provided it is consistent with the intent of the approved law/vote. So Dave is right here.

Now nothing is ever that simple and a whole lobbying industry exists to represent particular viewpoints and sway outcomes. Regardless of your thoughts on "special interests", we clearly have our own special interests on this subject. I currently serve as the president of a reasonably large international industry association and I can confidently say that individual pressures at state and federal level have limited effect. What gets a seat at the table is a group representing the interests of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. This is what SEMA will be doing. So the question is what is SCCA doing?

CNJ
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#46
MPR22

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Sheesh, you guys (Dave and MPR) are fun to watch. No ones going to back down. Like George Clooney and Don Cheadle in the fight club scene of "Out of Sight" :)
I know both of you personally of course (and like you both). MPR, you kinda did jump in and go after the EPA aggressively without having read the documents. On the other hand I know what you do for a living and how your land use expertise flavors your understanding of the EPA and their practice. Dave you can't abide what you see as an overreaching post. It burns you. Must be your site moderating background. Anyway I also know your understanding of SEMA motivations.
But keep going, it's entertaining!
For me, I think you both have valuable arguments.
While I'm not (yet) looking for a wild refuge to occupy, I think this is an issue for us to pay attention to. It is unlikely that the EPA will suddenly choose to make raids on SCCA and NASA events - they won't need to. All that needs to happen is for them to prosecute a few suppliers and grassroots racing will shift to underground racing.
Writing to representatives? I can't imagine how this would hurt but this is not their vote, it's a regulation change of the EPA which they run, not congress. Here is how it works: http://www.epa.gov/l...ulatory-process
This is very similar to the ISO engineering standards processes that I get involved in. The governing body says there needs to be a standard and then votes to pass it, then the details of the standard are worked out by a working group with public viewing as part of the process. Make no mistake, the EPA manages the game, but the public input has influence - provided it is consistent with the intent of the approved law/vote. So Dave is right here.
Now nothing is ever that simple and a whole lobbying industry exists to represent particular viewpoints and sway outcomes. Regardless of your thoughts on "special interests", we clearly have our own special interests on this subject. I currently serve as the president of a reasonably large international industry association and I can confidently say that individual pressures at state and federal level have limited effect. What gets a seat at the table is a group representing the interests of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. This is what SEMA will be doing. So the question is what is SCCA doing?
CNJ




If the public comment process fails it's game over with the death of Scalia. The court will now flip unless the Republicans manage to drag out the appointment process until after the election and even then it's a less than 50% chance they will win the Whitehouse.
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#47
speedengineer

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If the public comment process fails it's game over...

 

You mean the public comment process that was open for comments from July 13th 2015 through September 11th 2015?  We're all a little late to the party for that one...

 

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#48
Cnj

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You mean the public comment process that was open for comments from July 13th 2015 through September 11th 2015?  We're all a little late to the party for that one...
 
https://www.federalr...uty-engines-and


Fair point. Did not catch the date....

CNJ
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#49
speedengineer

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Fair point. Did not catch the date....

CNJ

I don't think any of the authors of the handful of news articles I read caught that one either!  :(


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#50
LarryKing

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I'm more than a little suspicious regarding the timing of SEMA's announcement during an election year.

 

What do millions of frightened, angry people have in common?

 

They tend to make hasty decisions.


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#51
davew

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Just got this in an email. Appears both SEMA and PRI are spearheading this.

 

A bipartisan group of congressman have introduced a bill that would protect American racecar enthusiasts from overreaching U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulations, according to SEMA. 

"The EPA’s new interpretation of the Clean Air Act would essentially rewrite the law and 46 years of policy and practice," said SEMA President and CEO Chris Kersting. "Without congressional intervention, the racing community and racing parts manufacturers would be operating outside of that new law and could be targeted for enforcement." 

H.R. 4715, the Recognizing the Protection of Motorsports Act of 2016 (RPM Act) was introduced by U.S. Representatives Patrick McHenry (R-NC), Henry Cuellar (D-TX), Richard Hudson (R-NC), Bill Posey (R-FL) and Lee Zeldin (R-NY) to ensure that converting street vehicles to race cars used exclusively in competition does not violate the Clean Air Act. The practice was unquestioned until last year when the EPA published draft regulations that would make vehicle and engine conversions illegal and subject to the law’s tampering penalties. 

The language in H.R. 4715 makes clear Congress’ intent to exclude competition-only cars from the scope of the Clean Air Act, including converted street vehicles, according to SEMA.

The RPM Act has been assigned to the House Energy and Commerce Committee for consideration. The EPA proposed regulations are scheduled to be finalized this summer.

The EPA recently re-opened the proposed regulations to receive additional public comment.  However, allowing public comment does not resolve the issue, according to SEMA, because the EPA has not withdrawn the problematic language in its proposed regulation, nor has it conceded that motor vehicles may be modified for competition use.       

"SEMA thanks Representatives McHenry, Cuellar, Hudson, Posey and Zeldin for introducing this bill," Kersting said.  "We intend to work closely with our congressional allies to ensure that the Clean Air Act continues to allow the conversion and use of street vehicles as race cars."

Supporters of legislation to overturn the EPA regulation may contact members of Congress and urge them to support the RPM Act.


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#52
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With all due respect to SEMA, once the EPA clarified this, there was nothing left for them to fight about.  That's why none of the OEM's got worked up about this.

 

We have a much bigger existential threat coming to motor racing and that is autonomous cars.  Not a single one of the sanctioning bodies is working to address this.  I brought this issue up at last year's The Racing Attorneys Conference (TRAC) (trade association for lawyers who do racing for a living) during a panel on which I participated.  At this year's Detroit show, it was all anyone would talk about.

 

In 25 years, we might be racing 2016 miatas, but we will not be driving new cars the same way.  Millennials are delaying getting licenses and they are being chauffeured by their parents/friends.  Simply put, the driving experience matters to fewer and fewer people.  The car ownership experience is also changing.  Car share models will be more prevalent.  Instead of your car being driven 5% of its day and sitting idle 95% of the time, expect that to change.  So the pipeline of racecar drivers is wilting (walk the paddock and you'll see that it is worse than ever).

 

We can complain and be the curmudgeons all we want, but the train is coming and fast.  The car has been around for only 100+ years, whereas the horse and camel were the primary conveyance since the beginning of time.  Cars, as we know them today, will be disrupted just as they disrupted horses and camels.

 

And if you believe one of the tech giants, he's predicting that human drivers of cars may be outlawed once autonomous cars are safer than humans.  Of course, that will shift the personal injury model on its head.  No longer are you suing a careless driver, but the manufacturer will be on the hook for poor software design.


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#53
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With all due respect to SEMA, once the EPA clarified this, there was nothing left for them to fight about.  That's why none of the OEM's got worked up about this.

 

We have a much bigger existential threat coming to motor racing and that is autonomous cars.  Not a single one of the sanctioning bodies is working to address this.  I brought this issue up at last year's The Racing Attorneys Conference (TRAC) (trade association for lawyers who do racing for a living) during a panel on which I participated.  At this year's Detroit show, it was all anyone would talk about.

 

In 25 years, we might be racing 2016 miatas, but we will not be driving new cars the same way.  Millennials are delaying getting licenses and they are being chauffeured by their parents/friends.  Simply put, the driving experience matters to fewer and fewer people.  The car ownership experience is also changing.  Car share models will be more prevalent.  Instead of your car being driven 5% of its day and sitting idle 95% of the time, expect that to change.  So the pipeline of racecar drivers is wilting (walk the paddock and you'll see that it is worse than ever).

 

We can complain and be the curmudgeons all we want, but the train is coming and fast.  The car has been around for only 100+ years, whereas the horse and camel were the primary conveyance since the beginning of time.  Cars, as we know them today, will be disrupted just as they disrupted horses and camels.

 

And if you believe one of the tech giants, he's predicting that human drivers of cars may be outlawed once autonomous cars are safer than humans.  Of course, that will shift the personal injury model on its head.  No longer are you suing a careless driver, but the manufacturer will be on the hook for poor software design.

 

Horses are not extinct. There are still millions of them around. In fact, I bet there are more horses in this country than race cars. Many people are very passionate about horses and even race them. If that's the future for cars, I'm totally fine with it.

 

I don't think we have a dearth of new and young racers because people don't think driving is fun anymore, but because racing takes too much time and money. Before worrying about fewer people being into cars, we should worry first about lowering the barriers for the millions who already want to race but can't.


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#54
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Hmmm...welfare for SCCA and NASA? Perfect!  I'm sure there is already a program that exists in horse racing?


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#55
Sphinx

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Horses are not extinct. There are still millions of them around. In fact, I bet there are more horses in this country than race cars. Many people are very passionate about horses and even race them. If that's the future for cars, I'm totally fine with it.

 

I don't think we have a dearth of new and young racers because people don't think driving is fun anymore, but because racing takes too much time and money. Before worrying about fewer people being into cars, we should worry first about lowering the barriers for the millions who already want to race but can't.

 

Actually, as a mode of transportation, horses pretty much are extinct, except in some remote parts of 3rd world countries where people still rely on them to get around. Cars as we know them today will end up the same way.

 

My point is that the pipeline of racecars will in fact die down because cars that are suitable for racing will no longer be produced.  That coupled with the fact that the pipeline of drivers is slowing down dooms our sport in the long term.  In other words, we are all going vintage racing because there will be nothing else.

 

The other aspect is that electrification means that those of us who know how to fix cars will have to start over.  That said, who wants to race an EV?  Formula E is what I watch when I am having trouble sleeping.  The smell and sound of auto racing is a big part of the enjoyment for me.



#56
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No biggie - there's some sick sims available. :tipsy:

 

I'll give up piloting my motorcycle when they pry my cold dead hands off the grips. (could happen any day with the text and drive crowd dominating the roads). I want to see a self-riidng bike.


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#57
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As I've said in similar topics, I'd wager there are more people doing laps than ever before, and spending more money doing it. The difference is the number of organizations running events. Back in the day it was SCCA for competition, and Porsche, BMW and Alpha club with maybe a couple events each (often combined in weak markets like this). Look at all the options today, and most of the track day groups around here have better turnouts than the race clubs. Some of them are pretty much full on, no point-by required.

No shortage of drivers or money, they just aren't looking for the same things we are, or haven't given it a try.
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#58
dstevens

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Horses are not extinct. There are still millions of them around. In fact, I bet there are more horses in this country than race cars. Many people are very passionate about horses and even race them. If that's the future for cars, I'm totally fine with it.

 

I don't think we have a dearth of new and young racers because people don't think driving is fun anymore, but because racing takes too much time and money. Before worrying about fewer people being into cars, we should worry first about lowering the barriers for the millions who already want to race but can't.

 

But when was the last time you saw a horse on the freeway?   :toast:   I thought the same thing when I read that, people ride and race horses all the time.  It's a big deal.   Board, food and upkeep on a good horse is more than a commuter car.  I would disagree that it's money that's keeping kids from racing.  It's desire and the demographic.   Fan and TV numbers for the younger set with regards to racing have been plummeting for several years now.  The culture has changed more than the kids not having the means.  Vehicles aren't viewed in the same way these days and as a result there aren't as many that want to race.

 

 

Actually, as a mode of transportation, horses pretty much are extinct, except in some remote parts of 3rd world countries where people still rely on them to get around. Cars as we know them today will end up the same way.

 

My point is that the pipeline of racecars will in fact die down because cars that are suitable for racing will no longer be produced.  That coupled with the fact that the pipeline of drivers is slowing down dooms our sport in the long term.  In other words, we are all going vintage racing because there will be nothing else.

 

The other aspect is that electrification means that those of us who know how to fix cars will have to start over.  That said, who wants to race an EV?  Formula E is what I watch when I am having trouble sleeping.  The smell and sound of auto racing is a big part of the enjoyment for me.

 

There is more to racing than production based race cars.  In some forms of racing (for example the most popular type of racing in the US) production based race cars are a minority of the cars raced.  In fact you can climb the circle track ladder without setting ass foot in a production based race car.  Karts, Bandalero, Legend, Late Model, Super Late Model/Modified or quarter midget, midget, sprint.  Even with the production cars used in circle track they predate emissions for the most part and are getting more difficult and expensive to find due to restoration, low riders, etc.  In many if not most hobby stock production based cars are more expensive to build and maintain than entry level late models.  The sooner they stop using old production cars in circle track the better.  Purpose build race cars are easier to build, maintain and equalize.  The hornet/mini stock classes they make you keep everything but the cat on the car anyway.

 

Off road will get dinged a bit but most those are purpose build as well even at the hobby level with the majority being tube frame trucks with perhaps a stock cab and look alike body parts.  If circle track and off road can do it road racing can.  Far and away most of the production based race cars are in club racing.  That doesn't mean racing is going to disappear because of lack of vehicles.  For the same $15-30k being spent in SM some sort of tube based, crate engine road race car could be build and sold to themasses.   :devil:  A good shifter kart can be $15k these days.

 

Meanwhile back in reality there is little to no chance the EPA will be able to impose rules to ban track only production based race cars.  It's just not going to happen. They've already started walking it back though they'll need to define the rules better or they'll be challenged in court.






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