39 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

The other org is full of those sorts of officials too, haha!

Easy Captain Obvious

[Chris Ashcraft]

wow that video is pretty neat, have never seen it that way

[Tom Sager]

If no scrubbing is a NASA rule then its a rule, but to say it is of no bennefit or that there is zero advantage to doing it is outlandish at best, lets just take F1 out of the equation, and then how many race series do not scrub tires on outlap of the race, i can maybe see it for qualifying as we are not starting side by side, and i rarely if ever scrub tires in qualifying...  ALMS, Tudor, Nascar, Indy, as far as i know every major race series, the best drivers in the world scrub their tires, so does NASA know something that they do not???

Maybe.  Some feel that stomping on the brakes in a straight line is equally or more effective at warming tires.  No rule against "warming your brakes" is there? 

[Rob Burgoon]

No doubt. As does wasting 1-2 minutes of a 15 minute qual "impatiently waiting" for the pack to GO!

 

 

Going out under green makes more sense.  Otherwise the leader can feel incentivized to bunch the field to ruin everyone else's qually and have maximum open track ahead.

[MPR22]

 

if you notice in this vid when he is drivign straight no tire warming is hapening.

Ok.  I want on of those in car with me in qualifying so I can no when to quite trying to wad up my car. 

[Jonathan Davis]

Finally got around to uploading my video. Here's the last couple laps of Sunday's race after the restart. The out of class cars certainly made things interesting... Adam and Kyle were right behind me, so I was trying to put as many cars between us as possible.

 

[Jim Drago]

That looks like an absolute cluster   

 

Congrats on the win and track record!

[Todd Green]

well, I broke out of my long standing self imposed NASA retirement this weekend:

 

One thing to realize is that NASA is a business and each region is essentially a franchise.  Our region has one meeting per weekend and I've never heard of anyone getting busted for scrubbing tires, even under green.  I'll have to admit I completely forgot the rules said only under yellow.  Basically if you aren't causing issues, we're pretty relaxed.

 

Not to say we're perfect.  We have so many entrants in TT that the group had to be split and the "slow" group (based on class not time) has to run with HPDE4.   You think it's hard getting a flyer in a race group, go out with HPDE guys who are still learning.  (One thing that is nice is that after the first session you are gridded by time.)

 

We also have mixed traffic and 30+ cars in our race group.  We put the faster classes up front and do split starts.  It helps, but doesn't solve the issue.  I've found going to individuals and nicely trying to explain out of class racing often helps (but not always and can be ).  I just try to look at it as an exercise in working on race craft, but I've certainly cursed in my helmet a few times when it causes me to lose a position.

 

WRT to bad apples, again it is a business.  If individual officials are driving entrants away, they'll (generally) fix it if you (and enough others) bring it up to the powers that be.  But both orgs have their pluses and minuses and I've generally enjoyed my time in both. 

[ECOBRAP]

  ALMS, Tudor, Nascar, Indy, as far as i know every major race series, the best drivers in the world scrub their tires, so does NASA know something that they do not???

 

 

Nope just a bad apple at NASA that doesn't know anything, here's my experience:

 

Had a tech official last year try to DQ my friend and I from our qualifying session because "an HPDE session before qualifying lets you warm up your tires beforehand and is unfair to other competitors" LOL (we were giving friends and family rides in HPDE4 during the race weekend).

 

Again, just a bad apple, there are good ones!

[Rob Burgoon]

Nope just a bad apple at NASA that doesn't know anything, here's my experience:

 

Had a tech official last year try to DQ my friend and I from our qualifying session because "an HPDE session before qualifying lets you warm up your tires beforehand and is unfair to other competitors" LOL (we were giving friends and family rides in HPDE4 during the race weekend).

 

Again, just a bad apple, there are good ones!

 

SCCA has rules against hardship laps before qualifying for that reason if I remember right.

 

A little silly to DQ since all the competitors could sign up for HPDE4 if they wanted to, but the guy isn't completely out of left field.

[ECOBRAP]

A little silly to DQ since all the competitors could sign up for HPDE4 if they wanted to, but the guy isn't completely out of left field.

 

From a performance standpoint I would much rather go out on one less heat cycle (three or four if I count the sessions from the day before), and more importantly not melted tires right after a 20 min HPDE session, I typically set my fastest lap when tires are warm but not hot.

 

Was just trying to promote NASA to friends and family but it didn't quite go as planned lol, I have since taken my ride along experiences to other local organizations.

[Ron Alan]

From a performance standpoint I would much rather go out on one less heat cycle (three or four if I count the sessions from the day before), and more importantly not melted tires right after a 20 min HPDE session, I typically set my fastest lap when tires are warm but not hot.

 

Was just trying to promote NASA to friends and family but it didn't quite go as planned lol, I have since taken my ride along experiences to other local organizations.

You can correct me if I have my sessions or weekend confused...but didnt you guys get in a little hot water those sessions for running very hard nose to tail, dropping wheels and making passes that other HPDE participants complained about? In particular 1 NASA official who was on track at the time? Didnt they ban you or want to kick you out of HPDE all together? 

[Rob Burgoon]

From a performance standpoint I would much rather go out on one less heat cycle (three or four if I count the sessions from the day before), and more importantly not melted tires right after a 20 min HPDE session, I typically set my fastest lap when tires are warm but not hot.

 

 

Spec Miata drivers know that, but do officials know that?  That's beside my point anyway.

[ECOBRAP]

You can correct me if I have my sessions or weekend confused...but didnt you guys get in a little hot water those sessions for running very hard nose to tail, dropping wheels and making passes that other HPDE participants complained about? In particular 1 NASA official who was on track at the time? Didnt they ban you or want to kick you out of HPDE all together? 

 

Basically both of us passed him on track (he was riding shotgun in someone's car) in the same corner and he flipped out about us doing a "double pass in one corner", which as far as I can tell is not a rule or anything in HPDE4. He then accused us of driving flat out and racing each other, when in reality we were both playing it incredibly safe and driving no more than 6/10ths, with huge buffers around other HPDE cars. A passenger new to being on track cannot tell the difference between 6/10ths and 10/10ths, so no motivation for any risk whatsoever. We were passing each other back and forth, but it was all staged for our passengers (i.e. lead car would brake immensely early so that the car behind could make a pass without even coming within a country mile of the threshold braking point, maybe 60% brake pressure at most). No dropped wheels at any point, or even close to it, so not sure where those accusations of his came from. For reference we were going about 6-8 seconds slower per lap than race pace at Sonoma.

 

I would understand if it was HPDE1 or HPDE2, but he was freaking out about us doing this in HPDE4, which is for drivers that have been open passing for a while, and are about ready to get their racing license. If there was a driver uncomfortable with us passing them 4 car widths to their door, they probably shouldn't have been in HPDE4!

 

But you are correct we are both banned from HPDE. My 1.6 can't get down to 2275lbs with a passenger seat anyways 

[Todd Green]

HPDE4, which is for drivers that have been open passing for a while, and are about ready to get their racing license.

HPDE4 is where open passing is first allowed. So you can have drivers who were just promoted from HPDE3 and are new to it. Drivers go through TT after HPDE4 before getting their racing license.  At least that is how our region does it.  Is this not uniform in NASA?

 

In any case, the more I read these threads, the more thankful I am for having cool people running NASA locally.  I thought the whole point of NASA was to break away from the stodgy  "good ol' boy" SCCA.  Sounds like some regions have lost sight of that.  That or all the litigation has changed things.  We've definitely had to change passenger rules etc.

[Ron Alan]

This thread is not about officials but seems to have wandered there. Matt got my point...which is if you are going to single out an official(even if not by name) you need to at least try and represent the whole story. In Matts eyes he  did nothing wrong(and maybe so)...but someone with the power felt he did. And that someone with power talks to many others with power. Once you are on the radar its tough to hide...again, right or wrong!

 

You get a bunch of A type officials with a bunch of A type drivers...no need to go any further!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Ron I did not mean to single out any official, I am ok if the rule is no scrubbing on green... that is just not the talk inhave heard and I have heard this twice now. And the whole thing is centered around the fact that no driver benefits from scrubbing... and as I noted every notable series scrubs tires. So I really have no idea where this comes from, maybe he is talking about under green? Inhave never heard green mentioned.

[Ron Alan]

Nothing was aimed at you Kyle...I was talking in general and to Matt on his experience

[Roberts37]

The issue of scrubbing tires has come up in every single nasa drivers meeting i have been a part of.  They never specify whether under green or yellow but it is usually in regards to the warm up laps prior to taking the green.  Also like Kyle said the argument is always it has no benefit, not the possibility of crashing, spinning, or hitting other drivers.  I think its ridiculous for them to say this almost every series scrubs tires.  In my experience I have always scrubbed tires, you are taught to do it from day one in karting and on the ovals we would not scrub tires if we wanted to cool them down under yellow.  

[Killian]

I think their intention is to stop the hot track scrubbing and throw in a little of the "it's pointless" to further convince people. I've heard it at two NASA driver's meetings this year and the most recent mention of scrubbing was in regards to folks scrubbing tires on an outlap under a green flag qualifying scenario. While I do agree that under FCY on the outlap it's harmless to other drivers, but under a green flag outlap scenario, a car suddenly darting a lane over may cause an issue.