21 replies to this topic

[vinceh]

So my 1990 NA has served me well and given me the platform to learn basic driving and racing skills. Now that I am spending more time driving my car at it's limits I am considering upgrading. My intention is to race regionally only, mostly NASA and an occasional SCCA race.

 

I am assuming a freshly built 99 is $32k and a near fresh car can be had for $25K. My car, as it sits,  is worth $7500 so I am looking at a delta of roughly $17k-$25k to upgrade depending on specifics.

 

Assuming a new engine,($6500) suspension($1500), trans($1000), hubs ($300) and brakes($750), and $3000 in labor I can have an essentially mechanically new 1990 for $13K.

 

Am I crazy for considering this route? Would the fresh built NB be a fundamentally quicker car? Why?

 

Thanks for your input!

[chris haldeman]

As it sits right now the nb cars are not fundamentally faster cars. Not sure where your from or who your intended service provider would be but myself and many others on here could help guide you too success. Some will insist the na car is not as good as the nb car some will insist that it is. That should simply prove nothing is better or worse right now just different

[vinceh]

Thanks Chris....I am in NOLA and there are no dedicated Miata shops nearby.

 

Just to be clear, I am not hoping to start another NA vs NB discussion, rather, if what I am thinking makes sense or not.

 

If I decide to rebuild what I have...am I missing anything?

[chris haldeman]

If I currently owned an na 1.6 car and was ready too improve I would certainly do the plan you listed and freshen up the car I had. Spend the extra money on race tires and track time. I was just at Nola last weekend supporting cars. Sunday race 2 winner was an na 1.6 :-)
Saturday pole was a different na1.6
And Saturday race 1&2 were both won by one of my guys in a 99 although a 1.6 led a lot of laps

[Ron Alan]

Try this if you have the opportunity...rent or borrow an NB car and drive the cars back to back on the same day. Run data in both and the same tires(cycle wise). At the end of the day my guess is you will have a good idea on which way to go! BTW...i'm not telling you there is a clear choice! Its going to be more a personal feel and budget decision!

 

Why new tranny, suspension and brakes(i assume you mean something other than pads?)? Do a leak down and find out what might be tired in the motor(assuming it dynos low). Rings may be good enough to just freshen the head and get to 9.4 compression if you aren't there yet. $1500-$2000 may get you another 5hp to boost your confidence without breaking the bank! 

[Rob Burgoon]

Try this if you have the opportunity...rent or borrow an NB car and drive the cars back to back on the same day. Run data in both and the same tires(cycle wise). At the end of the day my guess is you will have a good idea on which way to go! BTW...i'm not telling you there is a clear choice! Its going to be more a personal feel and budget decision!

 

Why new tranny, suspension and brakes(i assume you mean something other than pads?)? Do a leak down and find out what might be tired in the motor(assuming it dynos low). Rings may be good enough to just freshen the head and get to 9.4 compression if you aren't there yet. $1500-$2000 may get you another 5hp to boost your confidence without breaking the bank! 

 

It's a shame it's not more affordable to rent one for a race.  Maybe find a willing victim to trade cars + money with you for a day?  I'd be much more interested in how the 99 does in traffic than turning laps on its own.

 

Maybe a test day with some sparring partners would work.

[ECOBRAP]

+1 on renting a car, well worth the money because it will give you peace of mind in your decision. I rented an NB and knew straight away that I would try to develop/enhance my NA instead of buying an NB.

 

My decision revolved around (in order of importance):

 

1. Fun (whichever car you choose, you are going to spend a fair amount of $, so make sure you enjoy driving the car! You will also learn more, work harder, and drive more consistently when driving a car that puts a smile on your face. For me, the NB wasn't my style, however it may be the other way around for you. NB's are very smooth and require less dancing around with the car, but also seems to come with less feel through the pedals and steering wheel than an NA)

 

2. Speed (in my case, I was setting similar times in the NB, but noticed my lap times were hurt more from mistakes in the 1.6 vs the 1.8. However, I made less mistakes in the 1.6 due to having a better feel for what the car was doing, mentioned above)

 

3. Cost 

 

 

Again, all my personal opinion, can only recommend that you test an NB and see what you think. Ideally you would run it in a race or with a friend, but I just did a simple test day and it was more than enough to come to a confident decision and I have not looked back since.

 

Good luck!

[Brandon]

Unless you want to hit the easy button (and watch the greenbacks fly out of your wallet), follow what Ron suggested; a refreshed head and some dyno time may be all that's needed.

 

I'm not quite understanding the reference to a new suspension - are you not running the SM kit already?  Or were you referring to doing bushings and shocks "+" for an overall rebuild?

 

Forget the transmission - if it's not grinding or giving you issues, rebuild the shifter bushings (nylon pieces in the shift tower) for a better feel.  Same with brakes - I'm still running the same 4 calipers from when I bought my car back in 2009 and have a set of rebuilt ones still waiting to go on.  Just haven't wanted to spend the time in the garage to replace something that's working properly.

 

Now pads & fluids - I could see those costing $300-400 for both axles.  Or were there other bits related to SS brake lines and the like?

 

With it being a 1.6, where are you with the differential?  Have the Mazdacomp lump or has it been upgraded to a Torsen?  I've never used the MC diff but reading the anecdotes here they do strike me as a bit more finicky than the Torsen.  But then again, the Torsen is a +25# addition to the overall weight so I've heard.

 

I'm putting my money where my mouth is with my NA (a 1.8 but still) and have spent enough over the past 12 months to have started over with a '99 but I'm definitely happier to be racing (see, that's the goal, right?  To be on track?) the same car I know all the bugs have been worked out of instead of losing weekends to troubleshooting issues with a new build.

[Jamz14]

Eeeewwww. I think got some bullshit on me. Have to go wash up.

[vinceh]

Good idea on renting a car..hadn't thought about that route. One other thing I failed to mention was my size: currently I weigh 240lb and that puts my car at 2406 on the scales. I am giving up a 125 pounds against other NA's and the NB's run a 2400' max so possibly that would be a better fit for me just from that perspective?

 

 

Tranny: I don't really need a new one (could stand some new bushings, but it's working fine), I was just trying to compare mine to a newer car, cost wise.

 

Suspension: Shocks are 6 years old, I am going to replace them, bushings, etc. I want everything working as good as it can get.

 

Hubs/Brakes: I want to go through everything here and try and reduce any drag that's being induced so that's why I budgeted for that as well.

 

Engine: Good idea, I will do a leak down and see where I am compression wise, then decide if I want to go new engine or just get the engine/head refreshed.

 

I am not opposed to sending the car to a good SM shop and letting the experts guide me through the process of what would make sense or not.

 

Since I am in NOLA it's almost equal distance to Texas/Memphis/Atlanta areas. I know a few of you run shops...any recommendations?

[Steve Scheifler]

The car sounds heavy. Is the cage elaborate or heavy duty? Does that include a cool suit system, fire system (rather than single handheld) and other things that add weight? At 240 you would come pretty close to making weight in a lot of 1.6s.

[Tom Hampton]

I agree.  Car sounds heavy by at least 100 lbs.  2400 - 240 = 2160.  Car should be well below 2100 dry...closer to 2000 than 2100, depending on accessories. 

 

My '92 weighed 2050 dry, with full coolsuit, fire system, data, extra gauges, a heavy cage, beefy welded steel seat mounts and back braces. The rebuild hasn't been on the scales, yet (but I'm expecting even lighter).   The replacement is a 1990, and I did this as a tub-up build. Several things did NOT get put back (or were lightened up before putting them back).  I also removed more weight from the new tub that was still in the 1992.   

 

Its amazing how quickly little bits of weight add up.  Any decent SM shop can get you down to weight.  X-factor (Chris Haldeman) is my shop of choice, but it is a bit of a ways away from you.   That said, its not unusual for shops to support people at that distance.  If you don't mind the distance, you can't go wrong with him.  Besides, I'd like to have a 1.6 join me in the stable.  :-)

[mhiggins10]

I agree.  Car sounds heavy by at least 100 lbs.  2400 - 240 = 2160.  Car should be well below 2100 dry...closer to 2000 than 2100, depending on accessories. 

 

My '92 weighed 2050 dry, with full coolsuit, fire system, data, extra gauges, a heavy cage, beefy welded steel seat mounts and back braces. The rebuild hasn't been on the scales, yet (but I'm expecting even lighter).   The replacement is a 1990, and I did this as a tub-up build. Several things did NOT get put back (or were lightened up before putting them back).  I also removed more weight from the new tub that was still in the 1992.   

 

Its amazing how quickly little bits of weight add up.  Any decent SM shop can get you down to weight.  X-factor (Chris Haldeman) is my shop of choice, but it is a bit of a ways away from you.   That said, its not unusual for shops to support people at that distance.  If you don't mind the distance, you can't go wrong with him.  Besides, I'd like to have a 1.6 join me in the stable.  :-)

I've got one of his motors, and a weekend of trackside advice- does that count?

 

I've got a NA and I have no doubt that it is me holding it back from being competative.  With a good driver and a good car, I would think you could run top 5 (certainly top 10) at regional events.  

[davew]

First off i would have someone very familiar with Spec Miatas go through the car from front to back. You need allignment info, dyno info, compression and leakdown info. Then look at the things you like in your car. Does it have an old worn cheap seat that does not fit properly? Compare that to a new build that would have the seat you want and fits properly. Is your cage a minimal bolt in POS or does it compare to one of the good cages made by any of the well known shops. Do your belts expire next year?

 

I have a 5 page check list that we do yearly for all my customers. I also use it as a used car inspection report. We spend about 4 hours on the inspection. Get some one to do this type of work before making any decisions. Maybe you don't need as much work as you think. Maybe you need more???? Get the info, talk with the shop that is going to do the work and decide what is best. I personally have talked people out of new cars. I have also talked them into new cars when it was a better overall decision. 

 

If you send me an email I will forward you our inspection report.

 

Dave

[Tom Hampton]

I've got one of his motors, and a weekend of trackside advice- does that count?

I didn't know that! Once Holloway left for the darkside, I thought I was a lone ranger.

[Steve Scheifler]

Ditto most of the advice above, double ditto on the rest. But one of the options you mentioned was buying decent used NB, not a new build. Not a bad option if you decide to get out of the NA but many of the things recommended if you keep the 1.6 still apply, at least to the point of close inspection with the expectation that a few thjngs will need attention.

The math isn't easy, but if it were me (which it was recently) if the engine bottom end is solid I would find a way to shave pounds off the car and invest in freshening up the other mechanicals so you can spend a season or more getting the most out of that.

[davew]

Taking any emotion you have for the current car out of the equation. Looking at only a monetary formula:

 

If you put $8000 into your current car, which is worth $7500 as it sits. Total investment $15.5k How much is the car worth at that point. Does that make it a $10,000 car or a $15,000 car. Without knowing every little detail of your car, none of us can say. And what is it worth a year later? If a 1.6 wins the Runoffs, it may be a premium. Or it could still be Cinderella.

 

If you buy a $25,000 car and put $1000 into personalization/updates/maintenance. Then sell your current car for $7000, you have $19k out of pocket. What is that car worth a year from now. What if the used car pops a motor on the first weekend?

 

get somebody who really knows what they are looking at to go over your car. Without an unbiased eveluation, we are all just talking out our as...le.

 

dave

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Taking any emotion you have for the current car out of the equation. Looking at only a monetary formula:
 
If you put $8000 into your current car, which is worth $7500 as it sits. Total investment $15.5k How much is the car worth at that point. Does that make it a $10,000 car or a $15,000 car. Without knowing every little detail of your car, none of us can say. And what is it worth a year later? If a 1.6 wins the Runoffs, it may be a premium. Or it could still be Cinderella.
 
If you buy a $25,000 car and put $1000 into personalization/updates/maintenance. Then sell your current car for $7000, you have $19k out of pocket. What is that car worth a year from now. What if the used car pops a motor on the first weekend?
 
get somebody who really knows what they are looking at to go over your car. Without an unbiased eveluation, we are all just talking out our as...le.
 
dave

Dave that is all very good advice I cannot agree more with all of that!

[vinceh]

Good advice....and it's much appreciated.

 

I do like my car and know all the nooks and crannies as I do most of my own maintenance and repairs. 

 

Dave, I sent you an email...I appreciate the offer of the check list.

 

I am going to get some hard data on whats needed and not. One of the main things I wanted to know was, the viability of refreshing my 1.6 and it sounds like it could be a real possibility.

 

Thanks!

[davew]

I would also add, have the same person/shop do the same inspection on any used SM you consider purchasing.