166 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

Below is a link to the 2014 runoffs at Mazda Raceway. I am posting this as a counter perspective to Jims posting that he feared the NASA champs at the Glen. I understand Jims fear but being a NASA member I have the same fear he has of NASA for all SCCA major events and the runoffs. The first lap in this video is absolute madness that I want no part of. Drivers laying up on the start, stuffing it down the inside where they shouldn't be, stuffing it in between cars where they shouldn't be, bumping harder than bump draft, using the pit out lane to pass, (though officials allow the pitout to pass I think that is absolutely retarded),ETC. Then take a look at minute 9:15 . Driver off track and then coming back on track at speed and going instantly back over to the fast driving line. There is more but I think that is enough to make the point.

 

The problem isn't SCCA or NASA. The problem is SM drivers. Im not sure of the solution. Im not sure there is a solution. Maybe this is just all part of it. But what I do know is that if you think you can avoid this by being in NASA or by being in SCCA , I think you are fooling yourself.

 

[Todd Green]

 

 

The problem isn't SCCA or NASA. The problem is SM drivers.

 

No argument there, but I believe Jim's point is that with the NASA format you have 3 races of madness instead of just one.  Here's qual race 2 from the 2013 championship where some key contenders were taken out:

 

[Jamz14]

I understand your point Todd and agree. But as the glen video shows that even with a singular race trouble can happen. I think a better approach is to not focus on the format and a focus should be on the drivers. All formats will be safer if we make improvements on the drivers. But drivers don't necessarily become safer just because the format is tweaked.

[Brandon]

Hey!  Don't forget me!!!

 

I finshed P5 in the first race!

 

Wait the 1.6 is supposed to be the big underdog on the big tracks.

 

[MPR22]

So, racing the Glen at the NASA Champs was on my schedule this year.  I had some serious reservations about doing this race before this weekends reports.  It seemed to me every report from that place has been one of carnage prior to this weekend and nothing has changed. The NASA Nationals format leads to more contact and it doesn't take Nostradomus to predict more wrecks.  So do I spend $4,000 in costs going to a track that eats cars, with a group that doesn't care if a competitor is run off the track to move from 9th to 8th place OR do I go spend that $4,000 on one spin of the wheel at a roulette table.  Both activities are roulette, one is just the Russian variety.   

[Todd Green]

WRT to the 1.6, Ralle started from outside pole next to Tyler, but missed a shift on the start, and Tyler,

 

Just to be clear, the success or failure of the 1.6 is irrelevant for my point.  You could wave a magic wand and make the cars' performance identical and racers being racers would still debate the issue.  I'm proposing that any (future) spec series only allow one model.  No more changing restrictor plates, no more weight changes, no more ring and pinion changes, no more having different rev limits that screw the 1.8 after the mandatory gearing change, what car gets heat soaked, is better at track X, Y, Z, etc. etc. etc.

 

The amount of time and energy that has been spent on this subject is mind boggling.

[Jim Drago]

Below is a link to the 2014 runoffs at Mazda Raceway. I am posting this as a counter perspective to Jims posting that he feared the NASA champs at the Glen. I understand Jims fear but being a NASA member I have the same fear he has of NASA for all SCCA major events and the runoffs. The first lap in this video is absolute madness that I want no part of. Drivers laying up on the start, stuffing it down the inside where they shouldn't be, stuffing it in between cars where they shouldn't be, bumping harder than bump draft, using the pit out lane to pass, (though officials allow the pitout to pass I think that is absolutely retarded),ETC. Then take a look at minute 9:15 . Driver off track and then coming back on track at speed and going instantly back over to the fast driving line. There is more but I think that is enough to make the point.

 

The problem isn't SCCA or NASA. The problem is SM drivers. Im not sure of the solution. Im not sure there is a solution. Maybe this is just all part of it. But what I do know is that if you think you can avoid this by being in NASA or by being in SCCA , I think you are fooling yourself.

 

 

James

Now add walls and higher speeds with no run off and walls every where. Where you saw cars off and dust flying would be cars bouncing off gurdrails and into trafic.  Then add the pressure cooker of two qualifying races that are short and people are normally even more aggressive. Not a NASA /SCCA deal. Just a Sm drivers, highly competive format at a fast track with no runoffs and walls everywhere you can go off. 

Jim

[Todd Green]

I think a better approach is to not focus on the format and a focus should be on the drivers. All formats will be safer if we make improvements on the drivers. But drivers don't necessarily become safer just because the format is tweaked.

Fair enough, but how are you going to change drivers?  They already have meetings before and after races and stress that they are just qualifying races and penalties will be harsh for contact etc. etc.  Doesn't seem to make much of a difference.  I agree that changing the drivers would be great, but changing the format i sa hell of a lot easier.

[Jamz14]

Fair enough, but how are you going to change drivers?  They already have meetings before and after races and stress that they are just qualifying races and penalties will be harsh for contact etc. etc.  Doesn't seem to make much of a difference.  I agree that changing the drivers would be great, but changing the format i sa hell of a lot easier.

Todd,

 

Odds don't change by the number of times you roll the dice. If there is a 25% chance of an issue because of poor driving then there is a 25% chance whether I drive once or 100 times. So if we tweak the format to be less racing time then all you did is take away from people racing. IMO limiting how much people race is a poor way to address a problem. Racers want to race. I am proposing that we turn a 25% chance regardless of the number of times you race into a lower percentage chance for all the times you race.

 

To answer your question about how to change drivers. I will be honest and say I am not sure. I am not even sure we should be trying. Maybe this is part and parcel to racing and the mentality that comes with racing. If so, so be it and I accept that as so. But just for kicks lets take a look at this. In the video I posted. I would ask of the people that were there. Do you see unsafe driving as I pointed out and do you see driving that violates rules? If so, from this specific event were there any penalties handed out? Where these instances even brought up other than in a general way at the drivers meeting? If not wouldn't you agree that this would be a good place and way for corrective behavior? I was involved in a very high speed collision that wasn't directly my fault last weekend. My NASA region is very good at penalizing drivers with suspensions. As the victim I actually petitioned for the driver to not be suspended as I saw that the driver just lost control of his car and wasn't making bad decisions under a competitive situation. He just lost his car in front of me and collected me up. But the important thing here is that there were willing to suspend even at the cost potentially of losing a customer. In the video I posted, there were many instances where I would have no problem implementing a one race suspension. And that person then loses all the investment in preparing for a majors or national level event.

 

I don't have the answer Todd and I really appreciate the position all the organization personnel like you are in.  My position in summary is not to limit racing, what we all come here to do, but to modify bad behavior that would tempt us to limit the racing. If racing at the glen with walls being close and the potential is higher for writing off a car isn't for you, I understand and respect that position. But ultimately I think racers want to track the track with a high likelihood they come home uninjured and with an intact car. And it isn't the nature of the track or the format that worries people, it is other bat shit crazy drivers that worry people.

[Jamz14]

Jim I agree with you. But I think I know you well enough that you would want to race there if it was just you trusting you to keep it out of the wall. And that what really scares you is others. So I am saying that I want to drive iconic tracks like this but I fear my fellow driver. That you don't go and take away from what makes a track or an event great, you reign in the actual problem instead. No different than conservatives views on guns. Don't regulate the gun, that is certainly easier to do, but change how people use the gun, much harder to do but more appropriate.

 

I want to race against others more than I want to drive around alone. Though I like both, I like being there with you guys the most. Lets not use limiting that as our method of masking the problem.

[Jamz14]

BTW, I am not saying at all there was bat shit crazy driving going on that caused the accident in the video. Not at all. I am only speaking to the discussion of not wanting to drive because of a particular format for safety reasons.

[Danny Steyn]

I spoke with Leland today who had been discharged from hospital and was being driven back home with his wife. He is sore and will take some time to recover, but he had no hesitation in saying that he will be back. Great to hear that he is doing well and in good spirits. 

[Danny Steyn]

Regarding Watkins Glen, I love the track and the walls. But it bites and it bites hard. Its the only track where I have visited the medical facility several times, and fortunately its an exceptionally good and well run facility.

[Bench Racer]

Don't regulate the gun, that is certainly easier to do, but change how people use the gun, much harder to do but more appropriate.

And no matter how many or few guns are in the hands of folks, it's what's between the ears that is the issue. Way to little respect and or thought process.

 

When Kart racing in the early 90's, on track respect was mandatory or you paid the price.

 

Yesterday in Wauwatosa, Wi there was the tenth bike racing date in a week and a half long series. Spent 4 hours spectating. In the Pro men's race there had to have been 50 plus riders from across the states. These guys had absolute respect for each other thru turns riders 4 to 6 wide literally inches apart sideways. Respect is mandatory or you pay the price.

 

In the SCCA, we have Rules Of The Road/On course conduct. Respect, not so much. Respect should be proactive, not reactive.

 

No flame suite on, please think thru and understand what's said above relative to respect. Pick any point from above (not because your hot at what's posted.) and let's discuss/debate/argue in an open and friendly manner.

[Jim Drago]

Jim I agree with you. But I think I know you well enough that you would want to race there if it was just you trusting you to keep it out of the wall. And that what really scares you is others. So I am saying that I want to drive iconic tracks like this but I fear my fellow driver. That you don't go and take away from what makes a track or an event great, you reign in the actual problem instead. No different than conservatives views on guns. Don't regulate the gun, that is certainly easier to do, but change how people use the gun, much harder to do but more appropriate.

 

I want to race against others more than I want to drive around alone. Though I like both, I like being there with you guys the most. Lets not use limiting that as our method of masking the problem.

Jamz

I love the track and the ONLY reason we didnt go to as it was back to back with Sprints ( terrible scheduling and should never happen imo) I accept the responsibility and dangers and love the track. If the Runoffs weren't the same weekend.. I would be doing the NASA champs as well. That doesnt change my opinion that the NASA format combined with Watkins is a more dangerous than any other weekend I would be attending. Is it the drivers fault? Mostly, but the track and format all add into the danger IMO. All that being said, I would be there if it didnt conflict with the Runoffs.

[High Chair]

Just to be clear, the success or failure of the 1.6 is irrelevant for my point.  You could wave a magic wand and make the cars' performance identical and racers being racers would still debate the issue.  I'm proposing that any (future) spec series only allow one model.  No more changing restrictor plates, no more weight changes, no more ring and pinion changes, no more having different rev limits that screw the 1.8 after the mandatory gearing change, what car gets heat soaked, is better at track X, Y, Z, etc. etc. etc.

 

The amount of time and energy that has been spent on this subject is mind boggling.

It's called MX5 cup. Come join us

[Dennis Valet]

It does all boil down to respect. The problem is that most contact in these cars has no consequence so people don't really try that hard to avoid it. People will put their cars in bad spots because there's not much perceived danger involved if things go wrong.

All I can say is you won't catch open wheel drivers going three wide up the esses at the Glen during qualifying. The consequences are too dire if things go wrong.

I think it would be helpful if drivers stopped treating their fenders like bumpers on a rental go kart at the local amusement park and started acting more like open wheel drivers who view contact as something that should be avoided at all costs.

Going into the wall at the Glen nose first at nearly 100mph can kill you. It's not a joke.

[Mark]

We're all big boys and girls and should not need a rule book to tell us how to behave on track but I do have to admit that at times I do admire the POC, VARA, etc. 13/13 rule. It does seem to have a real effect on the drivers behavior. Contact does happen with those orgs as well but there are some consequences for the transgressors. The 13/13 approach is not perfect but the longer I am in this game the more I appreciate and understand the 13/13 rule. I absolutely hate fixing bodywork. Lord knows I've spent enough time/money fixing body work caused by others 'driving' issues. OTH my impression is that this kind of of stuff has gotten a lot better over the years. Maybe it is just my region but overall the contact is much less now than in years past. I'm talking about as far back as 2003/4/5. Some of the races back then were more like hand to hand combat than racing. 

[Jim Drago]

Dannys video on Jalopnik...  Reading the comments were pretty funny.. especially the one that said Leland should be able to kick Danny in the balls  You got to love the internet and all of the experts 

[Danny Steyn]

Dannys video on Jalopnik...  Reading the comments were pretty funny.. especially the one that said Leland should be able to kick Danny in the balls  You got to love the internet and all of the experts  

 

Yup - everyone is an expert!