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Is it time for an On Track Compliance Chief (TCC)

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#81
davew

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At the Portland Majors 2 weeks back, we had zero SM entries, so I went out to spectate on a GT race.  The leader of the race spun under the 2nd lap of an FCY and a 200K+ Ferrari challenge car in P2 lap 2 of FCY nosed it into the spinning GT1 car under that 2nd lap of FCY and took out the radiators.   The FCY was caused due to a car pulling off track and couldn't get around the wall.  It didn't leave any fluid down, it just lost fire.  I was not paying attention to those two cars once I got to impound, but neither car was there and I did not see either of those drivers in the presence of impound, or the stewards shack.  It happened with about 5 laps left in the race.

 

The GT race had ZERO tech performed.  As matter of procedure Oregon region weighs ALL cars and is quite good at getting it done quickly.  I don't view that as Majors Tech if its standard operating procedure foe the track.   After the podium deal and all cars were released I went to the chief tech steward and expressed to them that I found it completely embarrassing that zero tech was done at a Majors event..... Remember we were sold on best of the best.... Best tracks, best drivers, best weather, etc, etc, etc.  He got a little bit offended and I asked him to then share with me what tech they did and I was told that their focus for the week was safety related tech and that they checked all cars on the first day for fire bottle pins.

 

I am all for safety and think we should always be focusing on safety, but that is not a Majors level tech item in my opinion.  It is my opinion that in this circumstance people were more worried about getting the day over with an on to social activities than to perform some kind of tech..... Hell, even fake it for all I care, but at least make it look like you are doing something.

 

As stated before I believe we have a very basic management issue not a rule book issue.  It is cultural and starts from the top.  I hope the right people at National can help turn this around quickly.

 

Sean

 

Well said Sean. But I doubt Topeka even cares.

 

At a minimum both drivers should have been talked to for not being in control of their cars during a yellow flag situation. And being FCY is 100 times worse.


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#82
KW78

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The more I get away from SCCA the more I realize their model isn't working for "CLUB" racing.

 

More steward action isn't the answer.  What is doable?

 

I can race with people I know close enough to bump mirrors all around a lap.  The key here is personal involvement at the events.  

 

It pisses me off when I hear people won't stick around because they "got to get home".  Wtf, do you want to participate or not?  NASA in our region has a mandatory SM group meeting at the end of the races, in tech, as cars are going across scales.   Simple, effective.  BTW, our NASA also has a designated SM group leader.  

 

It doesn't fix everything the first event, but the third or fourth time the entire class is there, things get worked out in a "CLUB" way.  The rules and stewards should only be a backdrop for untenable issues..

 

The same method should be used for all the tech items discussed in the other thread as well.  Simple, effective, doable.  It just takes another 45 minutes added to a weekend and prep time of hours and days.

 

Benevolent dictators work for pro series or a series with a single schedule.  If you want to go down that path (whether a czar or committee) then I suggest requiring a 360 degree camera mounted in a spec spot on the hard top.  Those cameras are under $500, cheaper than the required transponders we use for on track timing.  The ability for it to see all angles is key to evaluate on track behavior.

 

Also, any system will have to have the time pressure diffused of analysis happening during the event.  Penalties, to be correct and effective, I think will take some review and won't be instant.  

 

Also, here is a major problem with this whole topic...  If a car has his racing room taken away but avoids contact out of respect to not cause an accident, which if he did would prove his point, what options does that driver have after the fact??!!  fix that, and you will fix most the contact at big event.  

 

Kyle


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#83
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.....  My point is if the stewards dont bother to bring us in at one of the biggest races of the year.. They arent bringing anyone in ever less a protest. Yes, I could have filed a protest but the other driver and I talked it out and were both fine after a discussion and moved on. My point is, this should have been a mandatory look by the stewards.  

 

I was ground to a halt against the wall on the front straight of topeka as we went 2 wide to the flag stand, totaling my car.  Stopped 30 feet from under a bridge full of stewards.  Not only was there no action taken, I was talked out of protesting because they could handle it better if I didn't..   BTW it was the 2nd formation lap and under FCY.  The SCCA system is NOT the answer.


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#84
Ron Alan

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The only reason you should have cars wrecking on a waved off start is if the polesitter elected to explore the lack of legal start enforcement and to go full throttle before the green came out.  Blame your polesitter.

And here we have it...another example of when rules/procedures/expectations...whatever you call it are not adhered to!!!

 

A front row going 45mph in 2nd gear who never get the green flag are still going 45mph! A properly and tightly bunched 2 by 2 start can not go anywhere until the car in front moves. Even if they have a radio and can not see starter...they should never get a green flag call!!!

 

 

 

In NASA there is a group leader for SM...usually a fellow driver though not always. IMO...when the group gets together...eye ball to eye ball...prior to qual or the first race, it seems to put more perspective on why we are out there and how we are expected to behave!

 

For SCCA...at a minimum...even if the pier revue group idea fails, appointing a well respected fellow driver to somewhat police SM(every region) and have every weekend meetings can do nothing but help! This may be done in places but I know here what SCCA calls driver meetings aren't always put on by people who have a clue about SM!


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#85
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Without talking out of school, adding to my post above, I think there are several Stewards who agree with our observations.

 

I think however, it is on us to make noise and demand they make changes. When that process begins, we need to be adding our suggestions.

 

I will work with Sager and Ralph this weekend to get a petition started.

 

I think there are some things we can do while we are waiting for something to happen. Lets face it even if we were in 100% agreement changes take time.

 

At this point i think we can be more proactive about running video and making it available as soon as we can to the guy that gets hit. Don't wait to be asked, review the video or go to them ASAP.

 

I am told that that they need at least one witness with video to make a judgment call.

 

Its crazy how things change, 6 months ago, I was of the opinion that those on tract incidents, should not be posted. that you should handle it in the paddock, That it was unfair to Monday morning quarterback it. Well piss on it, If you are the subject of the bonehead move post it. Peer review is powerful.

 

Make people explain why they do what they do.

 

God help me I hope its not me. :huh:

 

They also have a process where you can ask for a driver review, so if your protest does not work and you have a multiple offender, you can ask them to do a driver review. Its another tool to use.


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#86
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Frank, Ralph, Tom, ok, the plan/request writing is about to begin, for someone/someone's to review on track issues. Another possibly equally or more serious part of this overall issue is the penalty process.

 

I surely wouldn't expect there to be a completely separate set of penalties for Spec Miata. Might you want to integrate or start a new thread on 7. Penalties. It seems the existing penalties structure is applied sort of long term, which doesn't seem to be what the Spec Miata class requires. My strike through might be a start to getting to the point and shorting the penalty process along with the highlite in blue.

 

7.4. PENALTY POINTS

A. Penalties assessed by the SOM or the Court of Appeals accumulate points according to the following schedule:

 

1. Fine ($1 - $99) no points

 

2. Reprimand  1 point   (upon third reprimand automatic probation)   

 

3. Fine ($100 - $249) 1 point

 

4. Loss of event points 1 point

 

5. Fine ($250) 2 points

 

6. Loss of time, lap, or finishing position 2 points

 

7. Probation of SCCA competition privileges 3 points  (accrue another penalty while on probation automatic suspension) 

 

8. Disqualification 4 points

 

9. Suspension of SCCA competition privileges 6 points

 

10. Loss of accrued championship or series points 7 points


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#87
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Okay fans, I'm back. I haven't posted much since the tech-related scandals of "whistler-gate" and "STR-gate" , but, like those controversies, this is a legitimate issue worthy of my sagacious insight . It seems as though, at least in the SE where I mostly race, and at least at Majors, the carnage in SM dropped significantly for quite some time. I recall a stretch of several races without a single FCC in SM, although SRF seemed to take up the slack. Unfortunately, of late the SM carnage quotient appears to be reverting to the mean.

What to do? The shortcomings of the formal protest procedure are well-documented. Nobody wants to be "that guy" and, besides, the procedure is cumbersome and the outcome unpredictable and sometimes incomprehensible. The ad-hoc drivers committee suggestion has the same shortcomings, with the additional objection of placing a time burden on drivers who probably have other demands on their time on race weekends.

I am not a big fan of most things NASA, but I believe there is merit in their metal-to-metal reporting requirement. For those unfamiliar, the rule requires each driver involved in contact to file a written report within a specified time after the race. If one party fails to do so, he's in trouble. I'm not sure about the penalty for failure to report. Maybe a presumption of guilt. Anyway, the process forces the drivers to get together shortly after the race with a steward as moderator/judge. Although I have little personal experience with it (generally, at NASA events, I only hit tow vehicles rather than other race cars), it does appear to keep a lid on things, including in-paddock confrontations and recidivisim. No driver wants to appear repeatedly before the officials, even if it's never his fault. Where there's smoke there's fire. Involvement in too many "racing incidents" will eventually raise a presumption of guilt. J Wex made the point earlier: many incidents where no fault can clearly be assigned are nevertheless preventable. They are the result of high-risk/low reward decisions. The spectre of an inevitable discussion with the steward will naturally restrain all but the craziest drivers...and such a mandatory reporting system will quickly identify the crazies and weed them out. It's worth considering.

Finally, some perspective is in order. SM is the largest class in SCCA. That fact alone makes incidents more likely, especially on starts. Add to that the facts that the competition is very tight among the top drivers (many of them moonlighting pros), and that this is an entry-level class for beginners as well, and you raise the odds a little more. Things need to be toned down somewhat, but it's no demolition derby.


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#88
Jim Drago

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Okay fans, I'm back. I haven't posted much since the tech-related scandals of "whistler-gate" and "STR-gate" , but, like those controversies, this is a legitimate issue worthy of my sagacious insight . It seems as though, at least in the SE where I mostly race, and at least at Majors, the carnage in SM dropped significantly for quite some time. I recall a stretch of several races without a single FCC in SM, although SRF seemed to take up the slack. Unfortunately, of late the SM carnage quotient appears to be reverting to the mean.

What to do? The shortcomings of the formal protest procedure are well-documented. Nobody wants to be "that guy" and, besides, the procedure is cumbersome and the outcome unpredictable and sometimes incomprehensible. The ad-hoc drivers committee suggestion has the same shortcomings, with the additional objection of placing a time burden on drivers who probably have other demands on their time on race weekends.

I am not a big fan of most things NASA, but I believe there is merit in their metal-to-metal reporting requirement. For those unfamiliar, the rule requires each driver involved in contact to file a written report within a specified time after the race. If one party fails to do so, he's in trouble. I'm not sure about the penalty for failure to report. Maybe a presumption of guilt. Anyway, the process forces the drivers to get together shortly after the race with a steward as moderator/judge. Although I have little personal experience with it (generally, at NASA events, I only hit tow vehicles rather than other race cars), it does appear to keep a lid on things, including in-paddock confrontations and recidivisim. No driver wants to appear repeatedly before the officials, even if it's never his fault. Where there's smoke there's fire. Involvement in too many "racing incidents" will eventually raise a presumption of guilt. J Wex made the point earlier: many incidents where no fault can clearly be assigned are nevertheless preventable. They are the result of high-risk/low reward decisions. The spectre of an inevitable discussion with the steward will naturally restrain all but the craziest drivers...and such a mandatory reporting system will quickly identify the crazies and weed them out. It's worth considering.

Finally, some perspective is in order. SM is the largest class in SCCA. That fact alone makes incidents more likely, especially on starts. Add to that the facts that the competition is very tight among the top drivers (many of them moonlighting pros), and that this is an entry-level class for beginners as well, and you raise the odds a little more. Things need to be toned down somewhat, but it's no demolition derby.

we miss your posts! Another good one


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#89
Jim Creighton

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It seems to me that a lot of metal to metal is occurring on starts. Not to bore you, but I've worked for a NASCAR style short track series for years and we have very little problems on starts and restarts. We require the field to stay in position until the green flag comes out (control also tells everyone at the same time, green, green,  green because they all have radios and can hear him). We also have a start box ( Lines on track)  in which the field is guaranteed the green will be displayed. No late or early green flags. Only on the start, not restarts, can no one pass the pole position car until the start line. That helps maintain the two by two order. Drop down early and you get blacked flag for your efforts.

 

I am of the opinion that if SCCA would require the pole position car to stay behind the pace car even when he comes to pit lane and not accelerate until the green flag is shown, a lot of what is happening now would stop. As it now, it seems to be a free for all and no one including the pole car pays any attention to the green flag. I've watched SM starts and half the field was passing before the green was ever displayed. Also, SCCA should instigate the start box and the race starts at the same place every time. It makes jumping the start so obvious that no one in the field can get away with it. We, short track, have four different officials watching the start. The jumped start is dealt with immediately, black flag drive through penalty. And in short track, you're one lap down.

 

As for touching,  I am a firm believer that you should explain why you invaded another drivers space. And after racing for over 30 years, I understand racing incidents occur and they are beyond control. But, stupidity, lack of respect and lack of ability should not be tolerated. I doubt there is one single one of you who reads this that has someone else 100% paying for the repairs to your car. As an official and a race organizer, I do not want to see you spending your $$ making repairs to your car caused by others. I want you spending it entering our races and see you spending your $$ making your car better and more fun to drive. And if we remove some of the over aggression, we may save someone from getting injured, something that none of us ever want to see in SCCA Club racing.

 

I want to think that we in SEDiv SCCA have tried extra hard to keep things from getting out of control. SM is by far our biggest customer base. And we try to go the extra mile to take care of you. Thanks.

 

I think it is really positive that this subject is being addressed. I applaud all of you for discussing it.


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#90
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Brock O master, glad you checked in. I just have to re read that post and get out the dictionary. All we need now is CNJ to check in and we have the headgate crew back in place.

 

Getting to my point. Many people have pointed out the difficulties in implementing a Peer review committee at each race, award points and so on. Anything with to much administrative overhead will just never get done.

 

Again thinking out loud, I think having a contact impound is one of the best and most practical ideas that we can turn to, to get some results. We Still have to get SCCA on board with rule enforcement. But this is a change we can ask for now. Not much administration to get it to happen. Gets the drivers to face each other. Maybe post the list who were in Contact impound at the bottom of the official result sheet that way we have a permanent record of who went to impound that day. Maybe astrick the name of who was found at fault if fault was found.

 

The other topic i would like to expand on is the idea of allowing more time for protests. maybe a two tiered approach. 30 min. for protests that may change the finishing order and 1 hr for protests that are for assessing fault and penalty for contact. they can be two separate things. 

 

One of the things that i was told that impacted the no penalty at Gingerman was the lack of timely video. 30 min. is not enough time.


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#91
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One of the things that i was told that impacted the no penalty at Gingerman was the lack of timely video. 30 min. is not enough time.

 

 

Shoot, sometimes it can take a good chunk of that just to walk to your truck and back to get the laptop.


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#92
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[quote name="FTodaro" post="91790" timestamp="1468463549"]Brock O master, glad you checked in. I just have to re read that post and get out the dictionary. All we need now is CNJ to check in and we have the headgate crew back in place.


Funny! Yeah its been a while since I saw "sagacious" used in a forum... Time to play word games with the banker.

I'm traveling on business, working long hours but have been reading the thread. I have lots of thoughts but not enough time to elucidate. I'll leave you with one strategic thought. A petition may be the best thing (I'm not sure yet), but let it breathe for a week or two before you commit one way or the other. This issue is not as binary as headgate nor has the populist attraction and thus - unless extremely simple - could fail with flair.

CNJ
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#93
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How will the SCCA view taking a que from NASA?


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#94
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Because Brock O Master and CNJ are spewing look-up words how about a word sentence Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings used last week in a news interview, bellicose. Used at approx. 2:20.

 

 

We have a tone in this country that our bellicose nature comes out through our mouths and we need to shut them.


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#95
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Because Brock O Master and CNJ are spewing look-up words how about a word sentence Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings used last week in a news interview, bellicose. Used at approx. 2:20.
 

 
We have a tone in this country that our bellicose nature comes out through our mouths and we need to shut them.


Bench, I not sure what exactly you are saying here, and definitely don't want to initiate a political discussion on the forum. With that said, one of the police officers killed was a member of my church and the weekend was spent working on delivering calmness to a tense city. That calmness has largely been delivered through intentional communication and careful choice of words. I (usually) choose my words carefully because I've found that words DO matter and if I use a word not prevalent in normal conversation it's because I want to impart specific meaning.

So what does that have to do with the thread? Conflict on the track leads to raised emotions and there is little we can individually do to control our physiological response. We are overwhelming controlled by our amygdaloid reaction until we can get away from the threat/accident situation and totally calm down - and only then can we see reality. The SCCA guidelines do not allow for this time. In fact in my opinion the SCCA protest guidelines exacerbate the situation by raising stress further once back in the paddock. Anyone trained in mediation would look on our processes with bemusement. So it's no wonder that words fly that can't easily be taken back.

CNJ
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#96
Sean - MiataCage

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As for touching,  I am a firm believer that you should explain why you invaded another drivers space. And after racing for over 30 years, I understand racing incidents occur and they are beyond control. But, stupidity, lack of respect and lack of ability should not be tolerated. I doubt there is one single one of you who reads this that has someone else 100% paying for the repairs to your car. As an official and a race organizer, I do not want to see you spending your $$ making repairs to your car caused by others. I want you spending it entering our races and see you spending your $$ making your car better and more fun to drive. And if we remove some of the over aggression, we may save someone from getting injured, something that none of us ever want to see in SCCA Club racing.

 

I want to think that we in SEDiv SCCA have tried extra hard to keep things from getting out of control. SM is by far our biggest customer base. And we try to go the extra mile to take care of you. Thanks.

 

I think it is really positive that this subject is being addressed. I applaud all of you for discussing it.

 

Thank you for understanding and respecting who your customer is.  Unfortunately it is my experience that many within SCCA do no understand, care or respect who their customer is and what they want.   :)


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#97
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Bench, I not sure what exactly you are saying here, That calmness has largely been delivered through intentional communication and careful choice of words. I (usually) choose my words carefully because I've found that words DO matter and if I use a word not prevalent in normal conversation it's because I want to impart specific meaning.

So what does that have to do with the thread? Conflict on the track leads to raised emotions and there is little we can individually do to control our physiological response.
CNJ

Exactly, the Mayor chose the word bellicose because had the words that define bellicose been used you know what would have happened. Have to do with thread. Might some of us have a bellicose attitude on track before an issue takes place? 


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#98
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Cnj, great to hear from you again. My sympathies to you and yours for the loss of your fellow church member. Re Bench's post, let's take it at face value while acknowledging that it may be hard for those who are not members of the local community to understand just how deeply and directly this tragedy affects the people of Dallas. You and I both enjoy playing with words, but we also respect their power. Like fire, they can work for good or for evil, depending on how they are used. Kinda puts our debate about sheet metal damage into perspective, doesn't it?


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2012 SARRC Spec Miata Champion
2012 SEDiv Regional Driver of the Year

Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#99
Cnj

Cnj

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Might some of us have a bellicose attitude on track before an issue takes place?


Speaking for myself - I hope my pre-track bellicosity is extremely low. On the other hand my smack talk pegs the meter... :)

CNJ
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We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#100
Rob Burgoon

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Thank you for understanding and respecting who your customer is.  Unfortunately it is my experience that many within SCCA do no understand, care or respect who their customer is and what they want.   :)

 

Many SCCA volunteers reject the notion that there is a customer at all.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!




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