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#21
steveracer

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me either.. we tried that back in the day and one SM driver in a 1.6, Paul Mclester was buddies with one board member (Robin Langlotz) and it killed the entire NB suspension deal. It passed on CRB level.  

Really?!? One dude put the kibosh on that?!?

 

Can we exile him to run in the Alphabet Parade group forever? A-hole!!


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#22
Jim Drago

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Really?!? One dude put the kibosh on that?!?

 

Can we exile him to run in the Alphabet Parade group forever? A-hole!!

 

 

Yup.. Unfortunately it can work that way sometimes when you have a strong opinion with a very strong minded BOD member.  They both felt what they were doing was the right thing, it may have been.  I am just able to point out some of the frustrations that SMAC/CRB have to deal with at times. Its a strange system we have with the BOD getting involved with racing and parity. The BOD should run the club, the CRB should write the rules and deal with the "racing" issues. If the BOD is unhappy with CRB, they should fire the CRB Chairman or members. The Bod should not be micro managing every decision and every rule as it has for years.  That is not a very good practice, They should let the experts do their jobs, especially since many on the BOD are not nuts and bolts type of people.  While I am at it.. The BOD should let the president run the club as well, sink or swim on their own merits.  What we have now is the BOD putting their agenda in place through the President and when the plan doesn't succeed they fire the president ... seems silly too me.


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#23
davew

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I believe, the majority of SMAC members over the years (and they are the supposed experts) have wanted to allow complete updating of NA to NB suspension components. I know I have. But, we have been shot down by the vocal minority and conspiracy theorists over the years.

 

I am very proud of the work that my generation of the SMAC did. Drago, Fowler, Meathead and myself thought very hard about what was best for the class as a whole. We discussed many things that would have been beneficial to ourselves as shop owners, that we did not even present. We felt that the long term health of the class, would be a better benefit, than any short term gains. My hope is that the current SMAC continues in our tradition.

 

Dave


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#24
Danny Steyn

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Dave - the SMAC is ALL about what is best for the class. Every now and then you can detect a request with a personal agenda, but for the most part everyone is trying to do the best for the class. But as you and Drago mentioned, sometimes it is more complex than it appears on the surface.


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#25
davew

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Danny, after reading your post, I re-read mine. It sounds bad, no disrespect intended. My appology to you and the current (and future) SMAC members

Good Luck to you at NASA, we'll miss you guys

dave


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#26
Jim Drago

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I believe, the majority of SMAC members over the years (and they are the supposed experts) have wanted to allow complete updating of NA to NB suspension components. I know I have. But, we have been shot down by the vocal minority and conspiracy theorists over the years.

 

I am very proud of the work that my generation of the SMAC did. Drago, Fowler, Meathead and myself thought very hard about what was best for the class as a whole. We discussed many things that would have been beneficial to ourselves as shop owners, that we did not even present. We felt that the long term health of the class, would be a better benefit, than any short term gains. My hope is that the current SMAC continues in our tradition.

 

Dave

I am sure the current SMAC has the same goals and will continue as we did following those before us. The current SMAC is a good bunch and Sam and Wheel are great CRB liaisons


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#27
Danny Steyn

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Danny, after reading your post, I re-read mine. It sounds bad, no disrespect intended. My appology to you and the current (and future) SMAC members

Good Luck to you at NASA, we'll miss you guys

dave

 

Dave, I didnt detect any acrimony at all. No-one doubts your intentions were honorable. I was just stating that the ideals and goals of the original SMAC are alive and well and embodied in the group that currently occupies your old seats. We all LOVE this class, feel so FORTUNATE to be part of something really awesome, and we all want to leave this class better that when we arrived. As I have stated before, I will feel that I have contributed to something special, whether it is via the SMAC, my personal posts, my encouragement, my YouTube channel, my data sharing,   if we ultimately one day have a Runoffs where the Spec Miata class is oversubscribed and we have to have a qualifying race to determines who makes the main event. You never know, Indy might be the event!


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#28
Bench Racer

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if we ultimately one day have a Runoffs where the Spec Miata class is oversubscribed and we have to have a qualifying race to determines who makes the main event. You never know, Indy might be the event!


Reviewing the GCR there seems to be nothing referencing a qualifying race for an oversubscribed class. It would appear the race lineup would be filled according to one of two different qualifying conditions. If nothing was missed during my GCR review, might now be the time for clarification (if any is allowed) for year 2017 Runoffs so all drivers know ?
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#29
Terry Hanushek

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 if we ultimately one day have a Runoffs where the Spec Miata class is oversubscribed and we have to have a qualifying race to determines who makes the main event. You never know, Indy might be the event!

Reviewing the GCR there seems to be nothing referencing a qualifying race for an oversubscribed class. It would appear the race lineup would be filled according to one of two different qualifying conditions. If nothing was missed during my GCR review, might now be the time for clarification (if any is allowed) for year 2017 Runoffs so all drivers know ?

 

If we anticipate such a situation, I would expect that it would be covered in the Runoffs supps.

 

Terry



#30
Bench Racer

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If we anticipate such a situation, I would expect that it would be covered in the Runoffs supps.

 

Terry

Very likely it would be in the supps. BUT for the Spec Miata drivers (or any other potential over subscribed class) it would be a great item to know at the start of the 2017 season for planning purposes. Without sounding harsh the Spec Miata class is slightly different than many of the classes. IIRC at a Mid Ohio race this year some juggling was required for the production class race group.  They could not be one race group as they have been for many years. Had this juggling not been accomplished there would have been bitching until the cows come home. Point being not knowing until the last minute (the supps) might keep some Spec Miata drivers from entering the 2017 Indy Runoffs (bucket list track) for fear of not qualifying fast enough to make the number of cars for the class race group.  Who would be todays contact to run this by to get something complete before the 2017 season starts?

 

Shucks, I might do the minimum through the Majors path and do the 2017 Indy Bucket list Track Runoffs. :bigsquaregrin:


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#31
Johnny D

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If we anticipate such a situation, I would expect that it would be covered in the Runoffs supps.

 

Terry

 

How well did COTA go ?

Not a runoff ?

Let's cross that bridge when we get there.  :prayer: 

J~


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#32
Brandon

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The original reason for the track-width rule change was to support an easily verifiable way for tech to confirm compliance with track width limitations.

As it stood, the example cited was at an event, three different measurements of the same car resulted in three different numbers and no repeatable way to get the same number twice.

Tech must have a high-enough percentage of accurate repeatability for verification of compliance.

 

The suggestion was to do away with absolute measurements (the ideal solution provided close to 100% accurate measurement every time) and instead focus on the marked wheel offset (which can still be measured accurately 'in the field' should a wheel manufacturer get sneaky) plus any spacers installed (and to verify they were the same on each side of the single axle) to determine "track width compliance".

That's all this was and no spurious underlying reason for changing it other than a wheel manufacturer marketing a wheel as being "track width compliant" when it was a +24 offset (which had previously been thought to be "non-compliant").

 

I, for one, don't see any reason to pull the letter as this makes for a simple method for any home-based entrant to verify their track width.

Stock subframe, control arms, uprights, wheel offset of X, any spaces? BAM! Track width is compliant!

 

Guess I'll be writing a letter in support of the now-pulled letter (if that's possible).


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#33
Jim Drago

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The original reason for the track-width rule change was to support an easily verifiable way for tech to confirm compliance with track width limitations.

As it stood, the example cited was at an event, three different measurements of the same car resulted in three different numbers and no repeatable way to get the same number twice.

Tech must have a high-enough percentage of accurate repeatability for verification of compliance.

 

The suggestion was to do away with absolute measurements (the ideal solution provided close to 100% accurate measurement every time) and instead focus on the marked wheel offset (which can still be measured accurately 'in the field' should a wheel manufacturer get sneaky) plus any spacers installed (and to verify they were the same on each side of the single axle) to determine "track width compliance".

That's all this was and no spurious underlying reason for changing it other than a wheel manufacturer marketing a wheel as being "track width compliant" when it was a +24 offset (which had previously been thought to be "non-compliant").

 

I, for one, don't see any reason to pull the letter as this makes for a simple method for any home-based entrant to verify their track width.

Stock subframe, control arms, uprights, wheel offset of X, any spaces? BAM! Track width is compliant!

 

Guess I'll be writing a letter in support of the now-pulled letter (if that's possible).

 

So you are in favor of allowing 18 mm offset wheels either with a new wheel or old wheel combined with a wheel spacer?  Even at the rate we are currently going through hubs?

How does that benefit 99% of the class?   


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#34
Peter Olivola

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This issue reminds me of the '60's competitor running a fiberglass boded car who found a way to insure his tires were always under the fenders by sectioning the car down the middle and widening it.  Fenders were stock and no two examples of the marque were exactly the same.



#35
Brandon

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I wasn't in favor of a particular collection of numbers (offset + spacers) outside of my own recollection of history being:

+38 & 13mm == compliant

+30 & 5mm == compliant

+25 & 0mm == compliant

 

What was discussed at my last SMAC call participation was moving to something like the following to permit the 949 Racing wheel (+24):

+38 & 13mm == compliant

+30 & 5mm == compliant

+25 & 1mm == compliant

+24 & 0mm == compliant

 
However it appears there was additional discussion to truly "maximize" track width up to the previously presumed accurate 1475mm number which would necessitate some additional allowances of a wider offset (lower number) + thicker spacers.
 
I didn't necessarily agree with whether the 1475mm max width was being achievable (or desirable) but since that was historically the max, the SMAC seems to want to allow competitors to achieve this max and so had to delineate the necessary offsets & spacer thicknesses for each axle.
 
*shrug*
 
Just because it says you can, doesn't mean you should (NA1.6 front bar on a NA1.8 for example).

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#36
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I wasn't in favor of a particular collection of numbers (offset + spacers) outside of my own recollection of history being:

+38 & 13mm == compliant

+30 & 5mm == compliant

+25 & 0mm == compliant

 

What was discussed at my last SMAC call participation was moving to something like the following to permit the 949 Racing wheel (+24):

+38 & 13mm == compliant

+30 & 5mm == compliant

+25 & 1mm == compliant

+24 & 0mm == compliant

 
However it appears there was additional discussion to truly "maximize" track width up to the previously presumed accurate 1475mm number which would necessitate some additional allowances of a wider offset (lower number) + thicker spacers.
 
I didn't necessarily agree with whether the 1475mm max width was being achievable (or desirable) but since that was historically the max, the SMAC seems to want to allow competitors to achieve this max and so had to delineate the necessary offsets & spacer thicknesses for each axle.
 
*shrug*
 
Just because it says you can, doesn't mean you should (NA1.6 front bar on a NA1.8 for example).

 

and again as I asked others.. Why? 

Why allow this? Who benefits? what good does it do us? Is the class better for allowing this? 

 

this should be the limit, no more.. No reason to go woider, no one gains.. 

 

What was discussed at my last SMAC call participation was moving to something like the following to permit the 949 Racing wheel (+24):

+38 & 13mm == compliant

+30 & 5mm == compliant

+25 & 1mm == compliant

+24 & 0mm == compliant


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#37
Brandon

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You're asking the wrong person.  I was ambivalent in going "max width" in terms of the offset+spacer calculations but making the +24 wheels compliant I was supportive of due to the knowledge of a number of competitors here in the NE who had already made an investment in sets of these wheels.  

 

It's not justifying something post-hoc but it all rolls back to whether the track width rule is adequate as written (which was agreed it was not due to inability to repeatedly measure accurately) so something needed to be corrected.  Whether that meant stipulating how to measure the track width, finding another mechanism to achieve the same outcome (1475 max), or whatever, expecting a competitor to have to flush a not insignificant investment for what would appear to be a lackadaisical calculation to begin with didn't seem to be good for the class.

 

Again, I'm neither supportive or unsupportive of "going max wide" but I would be supportive of a change to be inclusive of the +24 wheels.

 

and again as I asked others.. Why? 


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#38
Jim Drago

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You're asking the wrong person.  I was ambivalent in going "max width" in terms of the offset+spacer calculations but making the +24 wheels compliant I was supportive of due to the knowledge of a number of competitors here in the NE who had already made an investment in sets of these wheels.  

 

It's not justifying something post-hoc but it all rolls back to whether the track width rule is adequate as written (which was agreed it was not due to inability to repeatedly measure accurately) so something needed to be corrected.  Whether that meant stipulating how to measure the track width, finding another mechanism to achieve the same outcome (1475 max), or whatever, expecting a competitor to have to flush a not insignificant investment for what would appear to be a lackadaisical calculation to begin with didn't seem to be good for the class.

 

Again, I'm neither supportive or unsupportive of "going max wide" but I would be supportive of a change to be inclusive of the +24 wheels.

I think we are in violent agreement :)


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#39
Ron Alan

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It has always been said the 25mm wheel gets you very close to the max track width with no worries of being over...was never the "MAX" offset you could run. The 24mm wheel gets you closer...too much?...you need to measure! I dont understand who determined the 24mm wheel wasn't legal...bottom line no one did except those who have assumed that 25mm was the max(when in reality the max is 1450mm/1475mm). 

 

I dont think 949 would put a lot of time and effort into designing and marketing a wheel that is weight compliant(thank you!)but in turn make a spec miata non-compliant. My guess is they did their homework!

 

Curious(for those who originally wrote this rule)...is the max track(front) width figured with the front eccentric bolt maxed out?


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#40
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The original reason for the track-width rule change was to support an easily verifiable way for tech to confirm compliance with track width limitations.

As it stood, the example cited was at an event, three different measurements of the same car resulted in three different numbers and no repeatable way to get the same number twice.

Tech must have a high-enough percentage of accurate repeatability for verification of compliance.

Please, what measuring process did tech use which was not repeatable???


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