47 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

Egg, cheese, ham or bacon?  Please don't leave us hanging here.

Egg and sausage, no cheese, with LARGE coffee. < Needed to include the sandwich info in previous post, only excuse to watch a race from the Carousel.

 

Was going to make comment, there's room at the Farm for more entries in the SM group, good thing I looked at the latest entry list. The group got 50% larger over the last two days. Still a skinny group for SM and there are only two IT cars which is kind of sad. SM should have a great race at the front, 4-5 cars. Don't get me wrong, there's more than I can handle.  

[Peter Olivola]

That would be an example of applying oval track and vintage rules.  If that's what the competitors in your group want and the sanctioning body agrees, you get it.  It is not, however, road racing.  To understand why it is necessary to go back to the days of standing starts, where the green flag applied equally to all, to the reasons it was abandoned in club racing and what a road racing rolling start is supposed to be.  A rash of stalled car crashes and the desire to move away from heavy flywheels and clutches were the driving reasons for the change.  What a rolling start is supposed to be is a low speed version of a standing start.  Cars are supposed to be in line and at the same speed, not accelerating, until the starter shows the green flag.  The popularity of CART, where the oval practice of accelerating out of the last turn was dragged onto road courses, influenced too many people, competitors and officials alike, that it was an acceptable practice.  When proper rolling start procedures are implemented and enforced, the problems are reduced to a more acceptable level.

 

I haven't really looked at this incident that much so please forgive me if what I am about to say is a little off base for this specific situation.

 

Ive been thinking about starts. Probably because I am about to attend the Western Championships and thinking about my start strategy. How do you guys feel about no passing until after the start/finish line when the green is thrown? Do you think that would be safer than being able to pass as soon as the green is thrown? Would it stop people at the back from laying back and getting a run to move up to spots they don't deserve and causing trouble? Would it make it easier for the starter to throw green earlier and help to stretch the filed out before passing is allowed?

[Johnny D]

On the contact at that the start.. Pobst did a talk on this at the convention a few years ago a few years ago. He called that area the triangle of despair.. or something similiar.  You cant just stuff it in under braking and getteh slightest over lap and expect racing rom. Once the other driver ( Mcdermid) intiated his turn in, IMO it was his corner.   I am sure, looking back and knowing there history, Andy would have never swung that wide with Sloe behind him.  

 

I really want to get so if i can get randy to do that talk here, it was a good one

 

I'd like Randy's call on that too.

If you stop the video at these points..

At 5:11 Andy's lost control and to the right.

5:12 / 5:13 he's all the way on the left side of the track leaving the door wide open. Did he not have control of the car to keep the door closed ?

He hasn't lost momentum/speed driving all over for Tom to come along side ?

5:14 Tom is 7/8th along side into the corner, not entering, into.

Tom almost on the grass but still. then Andy pinches him off, IMO

 

If the car in front of you loses it, you not going for it, you waiting for him to gather things up ??

 

Like most have said, Tom's an ass, got what he deserved but I'm just saying on this corner.

J~

[Jim Drago]

I'd like Randy's call on that too.

If you stop the video at these points..

At 5:11 Andy's lost control and to the right.

5:12 / 5:13 he's all the way on the left side of the track leaving the door wide open. Did he not have control of the car to keep the door closed ?

He hasn't lost momentum/speed driving all over for Tom to come along side ?

5:14 Tom is 7/8th along side into the corner, not entering, into.

Tom almost on the grass but still. then Andy pinches him off, IMO

 

If the car in front of you loses it, you not going for it, you waiting for him to gather things up ??

 

Like most have said, Tom's an ass, got what he deserved but I'm just saying on this corner.

J~

Andy never lost control... he drives that way  It's definitely not an Sm he is driving

[Johnny D]

Ok, if you say so,

Maybe just at the start of the race ? He wouldn't have much tire left otherwise at the end you'd think.

 

The guys in front and back drive different, not like a window wiper ?

Hmmm,

 

J~

[Jamz14]

That would be an example of applying oval track and vintage rules.  If that's what the competitors in your group want and the sanctioning body agrees, you get it.  It is not, however, road racing.  To understand why it is necessary to go back to the days of standing starts, where the green flag applied equally to all, to the reasons it was abandoned in club racing and what a road racing rolling start is supposed to be.  A rash of stalled car crashes and the desire to move away from heavy flywheels and clutches were the driving reasons for the change.  What a rolling start is supposed to be is a low speed version of a standing start.  Cars are supposed to be in line and at the same speed, not accelerating, until the starter shows the green flag.  The popularity of CART, where the oval practice of accelerating out of the last turn was dragged onto road courses, influenced too many people, competitors and officials alike, that it was an acceptable practice.  When proper rolling start procedures are implemented and enforced, the problems are reduced to a more acceptable level.

If you do something while road racing ....... it is road racing. I get your point though. However, no passing until start/finish after a green flag is used in some road racing series. I also agree that in a perfect world a slow rolling start isn't a problem. Thats if the cars are all grouped up nice at the start. But at large events, I have seen it where cars are still coming around the last corner when the flag is thrown, etc. The latest tendency of accelerated rolling starts began exactly because tight groups all behaving nicely was the rarity and not the norm. So now we have accelerated starts, whether officially condoned or not. I am asking whether or not it would be even safer still to add no passing til S/F? 

[wheel]

I don't know how many times the announcers have said something like, "If Andy keeps driving that way, he won't have any tires left."  Certainly, they said it at least once on all Eight of his National Championships.  

[Johnny D]

I don't know how many times the announcers have said something like, "If Andy keeps driving that way, he won't have any tires left."  Certainly, they said it at least once on all Eight of his National Championships.  

 

So with Andy's driving, Tom shouldn't of been along side at the 5:14, he was just asking for it, no "racing room" in effect.

And

If the car in front of you loses it, you're not going for it, you're waiting for him to gather things up ??

or just for the 8 time Nat champ ?  He's going to win anyway, right ? why race him.

(In this class)

Just askin

J~

[Jim Drago]

So with Andy's driving, Tom shouldn't of been along side at the 5:14, he was just asking for it, no "racing room" in effect.

And

If the car in front of you loses it, you're not going for it, you're waiting for him to gather things up ??

or just for the 8 time Nat champ ?  He's going to win anyway, right ? why race him.

(In this class)

Just askin

J~

I don't think anyone was asking for it. My opinion is he made a split second decision to go for a gap that may have looked bigger/better or he felt he could pull off from his vantage point that in hindsight it seems clear he shouldnt have not have made the move, it happens. You only get one split second to make that decision in the car, it is easy to get wrong. Bad blood also clouds the judgement. Sloe got the worse of it ( unusual in that type of contact) and obviously was upset about it. 

Jim

[Johnny D]

Yes , from the outcome.

 

If he protested he didn't have racing room, he would of been declined then ?

 

J~

[Peter Olivola]

Do you primarily race NASA or SCCA?

 

Yes , from the outcome.

 

If he protested he didn't have racing room, he would of been declined then ?

 

J~

[Peter Olivola]

Maybe.  It's been used heavily in vintage racing, but that's hardly an indicator of safety given the rest of the rules differences.  Consider how fair that would be for a large field.  

If you do something while road racing ....... it is road racing. I get your point though. However, no passing until start/finish after a green flag is used in some road racing series. I also agree that in a perfect world a slow rolling start isn't a problem. Thats if the cars are all grouped up nice at the start. But at large events, I have seen it where cars are still coming around the last corner when the flag is thrown, etc. The latest tendency of accelerated rolling starts began exactly because tight groups all behaving nicely was the rarity and not the norm. So now we have accelerated starts, whether officially condoned or not. I am asking whether or not it would be even safer still to add no passing til S/F? 

[Johnny D]

I raced for 3 in SCCA, won a free weekend to try NASA, was running SM in both and enduros that year, I've been running SM in NASA for the last 4 or so.

Jim Daniels asked me to be a Moderators here and I was on the old site to give you an idea how long I've been around.

 

Does that change the answer to the question some how ?

J~

[Tom Sager]

Egg and sausage, no cheese

You are from Wisconsin.  No Cheese?

[Tom Sager]

On the contact at that the start.. Pobst did a talk on this at the convention a few years ago a few years ago. He called that area the triangle of despair.. or something similiar.  You cant just stuff it in under braking and getteh slightest over lap and expect racing rom. Once the other driver ( Mcdermid) intiated his turn in, IMO it was his corner.   I am sure, looking back and knowing there history, Andy would have never swung that wide with Sloe behind him.  

 

I really want to get so if i can get randy to do that talk here, it was a good one

That would be a great presentation.

[Johnny D]

http://www.motortren...e-racing-line/

[Peter Olivola]

It doesn't change my answer but I would suggest that the differences between the CCR and GCR are worth tackling in depth.  Since you mentioned Jim Daniels, I had occasion to discuss his Runoffs contact DQ with him.  If you recall that discussion it divided strongly along NASA/SCCA lines.  I asked him if he would have positioned himself to satisfy the NASA rule before making contact and he said yes.  I would suggest the outlook on start/first turn incidents is significantly influenced by which organization you race with most.

 

I raced for 3 in SCCA, won a free weekend to try NASA, was running SM in both and enduros that year, I've been running SM in NASA for the last 4 or so.

Jim Daniels asked me to be a Moderators here and I was on the old site to give you an idea how long I've been around.

 

Does that change the answer to the question some how ?

J~

[Johnny D]

It doesn't change my answer but I would suggest that the differences between the CCR and GCR are worth tackling in depth.  Since you mentioned Jim Daniels, I had occasion to discuss his Runoffs contact DQ with him.  If you recall that discussion it divided strongly along NASA/SCCA lines.  I asked him if he would have positioned himself to satisfy the NASA rule before making contact and he said yes.  I would suggest the outlook on start/first turn incidents is significantly influenced by which organization you race with most.

 

1) So what was your answer ?

2) I don't like winning in court so I do my best to run as clean as possible.

3) the out come wasn't what Tom had hope for on track.

4) Under SCCA he was a long side, though way over so maybe Andy didn't see him, so nobodies really touching my question of racing room.

5) Randy needs to come on, assuming he's not bias. (Tom an assH#$%, Andy's a 8 time champ, etc.)

 

J~

[Peter Olivola]

...

[Bench Racer]

You are from Wisconsin.  No Cheese?

Man, that stuff sticks to dentures.