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#21
Rob Burgoon

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Skill doesn't matter if you're comparing acceleration.  Compare exit speeds, compare speed at the end of the straight.

 

If the 99 does better in a straight line, the 95 is too heavy.  We already know the 95 has worse suspension geometry, so it shouldn't have any sort of advantage in the corners when at the same weight.


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#22
Jamz14

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Bench,

 

I agree with every point you made and the comment that a change was made on data is valid.


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#23
Tom Sager

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Interesting that this topic has bubbled up today.  I just got back from dyno an hour ago and have comparative plots for '01 and '95.  We worked out the '95 pretty hard to get it to its best, spent an hour longer on that car compared to the '01.  No big surprises but the plated '95 compared to '01 is way off looking at the whole range which really helps to understand why the car was at an acceleration disadvantage.  I thought the '95 with 47mm plate would still peak equal to '01 but it fell almost 2HP short.  That's moot now with new rules.  With no plate there are clear ranges where '01 is a little better, both cars about equal and '95 a little better.  The advantage '95 area though is fairly small and then there is that suspension thing.  :crying2:  

 

I'll try to post results next week.  Gotta car sitting on trailer outside with only water in radiator and below freezing temps forecasted tonight so gotta take car to shop now and leaving town tomorrow for the weekend. 


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#24
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IMO the west coast cars as a general group are about 3 years behind the midwest/east coast cars. No one on the west should take offense to that. I also believe that we have the most rule compliant cars in general compared to the mid/east coast(THIS COMMENT DOES NOT MEAN CHEATING, IT MEANS DEVELOPED). Because of that, I think we have very good NA cars out here. So yes, I have seen a NA 1.6 walk the field multiple times out here. Because of that, because of my environment, I probably have a skewed perspective from the mid/east. It probably has also contributed to my feeling that in the right hands, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, with the right setup and rule consideration, the NA 1.6 and 1.8 are wonderful cars. I also believe that especially in the hands of a young driver fresh from karting it is a better car for them for an array of reasons. So I do acknowledge that I am biased by a multitude of things.

 

The NA 1.8 was my first car and I fell in love with it. I never believed it needed a change. I still believe the car is absolutely capable. To make the car East Coast fast, yes, it probably needs  SOME help. Out here, I completely believe that the majority of times that the car can't win is because of setup. If the setup is right, the driver is right, the car wins. Two cars of two different models walking away from the field doesn't mean anything as you said. Two cars racing together as they pulled away from the field MAY mean something. The point is I don't know. Doesn't everyone get that (people on this forums actual point!!!)? Doesn't everyone that doesn't have the expertise understand that the reason for asking for what success looks like is so that we people that don't have 5 decades of experience like Bench, and shops that have been building winning engines for years, can participate in the development of the cars that people like us tend to drive???!!!! The fast guys driving all the decisions on our cars don't drive our cars Bench!!! They have little motivation to help us. They do so kindly yes. They do so graciously yes!!! But the fact of the matter is that they do not have the PASSION to devote the time and energy that you do as an owner of an NA. My comments about SMAC and the other rules committees have nothing to do with the appreciated effort and time they give to do this. My comments are actually in respect to these guys. I have hated the process of what it took for them to give you that bone. I hated your pestering and bickering, and I hated the way you were considered and not appreciated by some. But pestering and complaining is what they tell us we have to do to get action. As Jim RIGHTFULLY pointed out; no one is complaining so for the majority everything is hunky dory. Doesn't everyone want a different way of doing this? Something that we can at least agree on how we are going to go about doing it and what constitutes a fact/data point and what constitutes noise or other unknowable A factors? To make the consideration process so much better than your experience with bones? To make the process so much less contentious for the people that do volunteer time to do this? So they can point to data points instead of having to defend subjective unquantifiable opinion only allowed to be given by people that don't even drive our cars (acknowledging that Tom does in fact drive our cars)???!!! The process of self interested drivers bitching and moaning to committee members seems a disservice to both parties. If we could just work on how to go about accessing a cars parity , what we would use as data points or judging criteria, it would allow even non pointy end drivers like me to participate in the process. At the very least it helps us learn how to access a car. This forum is supposed to be about sharing information and learning and coming together as drivers. Well we are all drivers so we don't share our individual secrets sure. But this is an area that we can learn from each other. You know where todays comments are coming from? They are coming from Rob asking about data that we both collected at a race. But in that request, we had to ask ourselves, what should we look at and how should we evaluate it? That question pointed out to me anyway, that we don't know. And every idea we had could be countered as Jim pointed out by a number of other factors like differences in tire wear and setup. My lack of ability to evaluate this has caused me to turn back to the people that have the power to make change and ask....... how should we evaluate this and with your way of evaluating can I actual participate in it because I have a vested interest and an emotional interest in the car I fell in love with.

 

So, I believe these things to be true: 1. You and Jim and others from your area and with SCCA are right and I trust you guys. 2. The SMAC and Xav and NASA are doing everything they can to do things right. 3. You, Jim, Johnny, Todd, Danny, others are right and I respect you guys. 4. As Jim agreed with, there is nothing wrong with my logic.

5. You, Jim, Dave, Danny, Johhny Todd and others are right and have my trust and respect. 6. Evaluating this may not be as simple and empirical as I want. 7. You, Jim, Rob, Todd, Kyle, Dave, Danny and others I respect and trust your opinions. 8. That we should strive to only make improvement adjustments to cars that are thought lacking if we are unable to implement empirically analysis of a compound adjustment to performance that includes negative adjustments like weight add or plate reduction. This again acknowledges what you and others have said that empirically analysis may not be reasonably possibly. 9. That if we do make a change that could have potential negative affects that can't be reasonably measured, we agree to be swift, dynamic and flexible in pulling it back.

 

Thats all. I don't think any one is after me personally or is nefariously harming the NA 1.8 . But you should also understand how it might feel to someone that isn't in the trusted club that they are changing my car and they can't tell you how they are going to decide how the change impacts you and I? But trust us, weight means nothing. But in another conversation on another topic all the sudden weight has a much more significant impact? This particular discrepancy in what people say isn't nefarious or intentional. But it certainly can't be true that weight is meaningless and significant all at the same time.


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#25
Erik Hardy

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I think this statement mimics the same situation as the 99' vs vvt? Cool stuff, color me surprised. 

 

 With no plate there are clear ranges where '01 is a little better, both cars about equal and '95 a little better.  The advantage '95 area though is fairly small and then there is that suspension thing.  :crying2:  


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#26
Rob Burgoon

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Bench

 

IMO the west coast cars as a general group are about 3 years behind the midwest/east coast cars. No one on the west should take offense to that. I also believe that we have the most rule compliant cars in general compared to the mid/east coast(THIS COMMENT DOES NOT MEAN CHEATING, IT MEANS DEVELOPED). Because of that, I think we have very good NA cars out here. So yes, I have seen a NA 1.6 walk the field multiple times out here. Because of that, because of my environment, I probably have a skewed perspective from the mid/east. It probably has also contributed to my feeling that in the right hands, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, with the right setup and rule consideration, the NA 1.6 and 1.8 are wonderful cars. I also believe that especially in the hands of a young driver fresh from karting it is a better car for them for an array of reasons. So I do acknowledge that I am biased by a multitude of things.

 

The NA 1.8 was my first car and I fell in love with it. I never believed it needed a change. I still believe the car is absolutely capable. To make the car East Coast fast, yes, it probably needs  SOME help. Out here, I completely believe that the majority of times that the car can't win is because of setup. If the setup is right, the driver is right, the car wins. Two cars of two different models walking away from the field doesn't mean anything as you said. Two cars racing together as they pulled away from the field MAY mean something. The point is I don't know. Doesn't everyone get that (people on this forums actual point!!!)? Doesn't everyone that doesn't have the expertise understand that the reason for asking for what success looks like is so that we people that don't have 5 decades of experience like Bench, and shops that have been building winning engines for years, can participate in the development of the cars that people like us tend to drive???!!!! The fast guys driving all the decisions on our cars don't drive our cars Bench!!! They have little motivation to help us. They do so kindly yes. They do so graciously yes!!! But the fact of the matter is that they do not have the PASSION to devote the time and energy that you do as an owner of an NA. My comments about SMAC and the other rules committees have nothing to do with the appreciated effort and time they give to do this. My comments are actually in respect to these guys. I have hated the process of what it took for them to give you that bone. I hated your pestering and bickering, and I hated the way you were considered and not appreciated by some. But pestering and complaining is what they tell us we have to do to get action. As Jim RIGHTFULLY pointed out; no one is complaining so for the majority everything is hunky dory. Doesn't everyone want a different way of doing this? Something that we can at least agree on how we are going to go about doing it and what constitutes a fact/data point and what constitutes noise or other unknowable A factors? To make the consideration process so much better than your experience with bones? To make the process so much less contentious for the people that do volunteer time to do this? So they can point to data points instead of having to defend subjective unquantifiable opinion only allowed to be given by people that don't even drive our cars (acknowledging that Tom does in fact drive our cars)???!!! The process of self interested drivers bitching and moaning to committee members seems a disservice to both parties. If we could just work on how to go about accessing a cars parity , what we would use as data points or judging criteria, it would allow even non pointy end drivers like me to participate in the process. At the very least it helps us learn how to access a car. This forum is supposed to be about sharing information and learning and coming together as drivers. Well we are all drivers so we don't share our individual secrets sure. But this is an area that we can learn from each other. You know where todays comments are coming from? They are coming from Rob asking about data that we both collected at a race. But in that request, we had to ask ourselves, what should we look at and how should we evaluate it? That question pointed out to me anyway, that we don't know. And every idea we had could be countered as Jim pointed out by a number of other factors like differences in tire wear and setup. My lack of ability to evaluate this has caused me to turn back to the people that have the power to make change and ask....... how should we evaluate this and with your way of evaluating can I actual participate in it because I have a vested interest and an emotional interest in the car I fell in love with.

 

So, I believe these things to be true: 1. You and Jim and others from your area and with SCCA are right and I trust you guys. 2. The SMAC and Xav and NASA are doing everything they can to do things right. 3. You, Jim, Johnny, Todd, Danny, others are right and I respect you guys. 4. As Jim agreed with, there is nothing wrong with my logic.

5. You, Jim, Dave, Danny, Johhny Todd and others are right and have my trust and respect. 6. Evaluating this may not be as simple and empirical as I want. 7. You, Jim, Rob, Todd, Kyle, Dave, Danny and others I respect and trust your opinions. 8. That we should strive to only make improvement adjustments to cars that are thought lacking if we are unable to implement empirically analysis of a compound adjustment to performance that includes negative adjustments like weight add or plate reduction. This again acknowledges what you and others have said that empirically analysis may not be reasonably possibly. 9. That if we do make a change that could have potential negative affects that can't be reasonably measured, we agree to be swift, dynamic and flexible in pulling it back.

 

Thats all. I don't think any one is after me personally or is nefariously harming the NA 1.8 . But you should also understand how it might feel to someone that isn't in the trusted club that they are changing my car and they can't tell you how they are going to decide how the change impacts you and I? But trust us, weight means nothing. But in another conversation on another topic all the sudden weight has a much more significant impact? This particular discrepancy in what people say isn't nefarious or intentional. But it certainly can't be true that weight is meaningless and significant all at the same time.

 

Meh. Whatever.  I still think you can measure performance in a straight line relatively safely.  Hell, you don't even need a race track for that.  Anyone have 99 vs 95 plateless dyno sheets?  If the 99 is stronger, the 95 needs a weight break.  Simple.

 

It's that or label the NA8 cars as "deprecated" on its spec line.


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#27
Ron Alan

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Sorry James...you lost me with your short story on the first line!

 

No one is behind on the West Coast! Development knowledge is shared and sold to all corners of the country...and the West coast has no lack of great drivers! Problem is for the most part we race ourselves...as do the guys from Texas to Florida. Because the SCCA Championships has lived in the East for so many years, and many of those top drivers and groups have a very visible presence here, it gives the illusion we could never keep up. When some of the top names we read about came to the West coast in 2014 they did well but it was 3 local guys and a pro driver who finished the race up front(no need to correct me as I'm referring to the checkered flag). I can count on 2 hands the West coast drivers that post here on a regular basis though there are 100's of drivers out here. The last 4 (maybe 5?) Shootout winners have been from the West coast! 

 

No one is behind out here James...for whatever reason we just choose to be a little isolated :) 


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#28
Jamz14

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Meh. Whatever.  I still think you can measure performance in a straight line relatively safely.  Hell, you don't even need a race track for that.  Anyone have 99 vs 95 plateless dyno sheets?  If the 99 is stronger, the 95 needs a weight break.  Simple.
 
It's that or label the NA8 cars as "deprecated" on its spec line.


I don't agree at all. But sure rob. Simple. I'll tell you what, I've got a 99 dyno sheet from two weeks ago. You grab your last sheet and send them both in to Xav and request the weight reduction.

Somehow I feel there will be a variety of reasons why you don't take me up on the offer.
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#29
Jamz14

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Ron,

I knew that was going to be misunderstood. Look, we do not have the volume of vvt cars that you see in other regions. We have more early cars I think than other regions as a percentage. The guys breaking ground on the latest models in volume are back east. That doesn't mean that when a west coast builders builds a late model that it is slower. It means exactly what you said, we are a bit more isolated without the same pool of cars. So as a group, less developed. As individual cars, plenty fast and developed. This comment had nothing to do with driver talent. In that department we have MORE than our fair share of young talent. And old.
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#30
Jamz14

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All, you asked for time to race and see. You got it. Race and we will see.
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#31
Jamz14

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Rob, better yet I'll post my 99 dyno sheet here in a bit. You will get a good laugh at it. Let me know if you would good with sending it in even if you pulled on the same one same day. Let me know if you really think am 15 hp down from the big boy engines.
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#32
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James, my name does not belong associated with the heralded names in your post.


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#33
Rob Burgoon

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Rob, better yet I'll post my 99 dyno sheet here in a bit. You will get a good laugh at it. Let me know if you would good with sending it in even if you pulled on the same one same day. Let me know if you really think am 15 hp down from the big boy engines.

 

Ok, which dyno?  7s reads at least 3hp lower than MCE


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#34
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#35
Jamz14

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How do you post pictures? Just tried and it didn't work.

 

Bottle Blown Racing Rob. Ill give you the highlights of it and send it via text so you know I am not bullshitting.

 

It is a superflow dyno. My raw superflow numbers were 109.5 HP and 103.1 Tq. The dyno jet corrected #s are 115.8 hp and 103.1 Tq.

 

What was yours? Id be willing to bet better. So can we take some weight off the 99 then? Do these numbers really match what you saw Sunday?

 

Dynos are useless to buy engines. Their only value is to prove out relative changes or to compare cars on the same day same dyno. The number itself is useless. Then we also need to consider that they are chassis dynos. Unless you running gear is identical to mine out to the wheels, then you still can't tell me we are comparing power equally. We are comparing how power is applied to the ground. And it is useless to show the affects of weight on different chassis and suspension geometries.


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#36
Rob Burgoon

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How do you post pictures? Just tried and it didn't work.

 

Bottle Blown Racing Rob. Ill give you the highlights of it and send it via text so you know I am not bullshitting.

 

It is a superflow dyno. My raw superflow numbers were 109.5 HP and 103.1 Tq. The dyno jet corrected #s are 115.8 hp and 103.1 Tq.

 

What was yours? Id be willing to bet better. So can we take some weight off the 99 then? Do these numbers really match what you saw Sunday?

 

Dynos are useless to buy engines. Their only value is to prove out relative changes or to compare cars on the same day same dyno. The number itself is useless. Then we also need to consider that they are chassis dynos. Unless you running gear is identical to mine out to the wheels, then you still can't tell me we are comparing power equally. We are comparing how power is applied to the ground. And it is useless to show the affects of weight on different chassis and suspension geometries.

 

I can tell just be driving near that car that the dynojet numbers are way higher.

 

Even if my car made less power, we wouldn't pull weight from the 99.  That would mess up parity for the other spec lines.  We wouldn't necessarily add weight to the 95 either, since it's a sample size of 1, and also the 95 is worse in the corners and has worse aero.  The 95 should be slightly more powerful or lighter than the 99.

 

And you're right, there are other variables.  But with larger sample sizes, it comes out in the wash.  So far we have the Danny video and this one, that's 2.  IMO, both saying the 95 needs help.  Hopefully we'll have more.


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#37
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Ron,

I knew that was going to be misunderstood. Look, we do not have the volume of vvt cars that you see in other regions. We have more early cars I think than other regions as a percentage. The guys breaking ground on the latest models in volume are back east. That doesn't mean that when a west coast builders builds a late model that it is slower. It means exactly what you said, we are a bit more isolated without the same pool of cars. So as a group, less developed. As individual cars, plenty fast and developed. This comment had nothing to do with driver talent. In that department we have MORE than our fair share of young talent. And old.

The biggest reason we have less vvt cars on the west coast is RUST! (IMO)


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#38
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award given :)


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#39
Jamz14

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I don't disagree with you Ron. But whatever the reason, we have fewer late models and many really good NA 1.6s and NA 1.8s. My comment was a long winded way of answering Bench that yes indeed I have seen many 1.6 cars walking the field out here. Unusual out there, not so much here. Walking away from the the field, not walking away from other cars that are on the pointy end. That is another distinction east from west. They have larger fields of quality cars and drivers. Not that ours are of less quality, just fewer numbers.

 

Our regional field last weekend was 7 or 8 drivers. Norcal fields are bigger. If we had a full california contingent in socal last weekend you would not have seen two cars walking the field. You'd see 8-10 cars walking the field just like back east.

 

Fewer cars means less development overall. Not that a good person or good shop isn't building quality cars or that we don't have great drivers.


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#40
Rob Burgoon

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With Socal NASA the season really starts when the full field of teens join the fray.


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