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NA8 at 2400 video at Willow Springs

- - - - - parity weight

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#41
Jamz14

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Even if my car made less power, we wouldn't pull weight from the 99.  That would mess up parity for the other spec lines.  We wouldn't necessarily add weight to the 95 either, since it's a sample size of 1, and also the 95 is worse in the corners and has worse aero.  The 95 should be slightly more powerful or lighter than the 99.

 

And you're right, there are other variables.  But with larger sample sizes, it comes out in the wash.  So far we have the Danny video and this one, that's 2.  IMO, both saying the 95 needs help.  Hopefully we'll have more.

Cool. we agree then that a drag race and dyno pulls do not tell the story and it isn't simple. So we are back to , what does tell the story? I wish I could help you get weight off your car Rob. This whole fight I have been waging has been counter productive to my long term goal of fielding a winning young driver in a well built car. You are on your own my friend as far as fighting to have weight removed. You being lighter is counter to my goals. But don't sweat it, the weight is meaningless and insignificant I am told.

 

Our videos don't show the NA 1.8 needs help IMO. IMO our video shows a setup problem with your car. I can show you the video from my 99 that you were walking on Saturday acting similarly to yours until I made major changes to the car overnight. Your video shows you unable to hold the line and pushing out in T2. So did the 99 until we changed it. And the change wasn't new tires. What is relevant with this data point is that I know for a fact that a NA 1.8 can go into T2 full throttle and hold the inside line all the way through without lifting. Granted you only go in without lifting when everything is exactly right and only for a couple of laps. That you couldn't on any lap tells me that your setup is off. With the setup on your car being that far off, then the video is useless to compare parity.


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#42
Rob Burgoon

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Cool. we agree then that a drag race and dyno pulls do not tell the story and it isn't simple. 

 

Did not say that.

 

My car may have been loose all weekend, but min speeds and straights early in the race tell the tale.


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#43
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award given :)

Can ya take mine away now? :bigsquaregrin:


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#44
Jamz14

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Did not say that.

 

My car may have been loose all weekend, but min speeds and straights early in the race tell the tale.

Ok, but what tale do they tell? Is it saying your car isn't optimally setup or is it saying that the extra weight is affecting your min corner speed and pushing you off line? Our race is useless in this conversation. You told Tom that your motor was in no condition to make a judgement prior to this weekend. At least you said you had doubts. Did your doubts go away and your motor was at its peak? How is Tom to view the data of min corner and straight speed we could provide him?

 

Again, it isn't as simple as min corner speeds, drag races or dynos. If it was that easy, I can provide Tom and SMAC all kinds of min corner speed data from years of logging. There are plenty of really good 99's over those years that raced with us that have logged data.


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#45
Jamz14

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Yes. Take Benches away because is now acting alot more like you guys want him to.


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#46
Rob Burgoon

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Ok, but what tale do they tell? Is it saying your car isn't optimally setup or is it saying that the extra weight is affecting your min corner speed and pushing you off line? Our race is useless in this conversation. You told Tom that your motor was in no condition to make a judgement prior to this weekend. At least you said you had doubts. Did your doubts go away and your motor was at its peak? How is Tom to view the data of min corner and straight speed we could provide him?

 

Again, it isn't as simple as min corner speeds, drag races or dynos. If it was that easy, I can provide Tom and SMAC all kinds of min corner speed data from years of logging. There are plenty of really good 99's over those years that raced with us that have logged data.

 

AFAIK, my engine currently is doing great for a 1.8 up to about lap 6 or so, then either coolant temps or heat soak slow the car down about 1 second a lap for the rest of the race.

Since that heat only lasted 5 laps, I think the data is pretty good.

 

 

Min speed is just the easiest number to collect and compare.  I suppose being at part throttle late in the corner could hork that up.  Doing it properly would be comparing exit speed, but you'd need to find data from the same spot on the track which is trickier.

 

But really I'm bored with this.  Maybe we'll compare some dyno results since the weights are the same.


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#47
Rob Burgoon

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Or maybe I'll just build a 99 and let the 1.8 owners burn.


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#48
Jamz14

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Or maybe I'll just build a 99 and let the 1.8 owners burn.


What? You were the one saying the changes were going to be good and now you want to let the others burn as you go build a 99? I wouldn't use the word bored about listening to all the duplicity on weight. I'd use a different word.

Well rob, we agree at least and we are now at a point where our advice to anyone thinking about an NA is the same.
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#49
Rob Burgoon

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What? You were the one saying the changes were going to be good and now you want to let the others burn as you go build a 99? I wouldn't use the word bored about listening to all the duplicity on weight. I'd use a different word.

Well rob, we agree at least and we are now at a point where our advice to anyone thinking about an NA is the same.

 

When the plate delete and new weight proposal came out, I was supportive of the general concept of making the car heavier and more powerful (like an NB), but not at the expense of lap time.  I still feel the same way.


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#50
Jamz14

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And like you told me this weekend: "the extra weight and power didn't turn it into an NB". So instead what we got was a heavy NA. We find ourselves with the same perspective once again Rob; let the NA 1.8 owners burn. Build a late model to win, drive a 1.6 to have more fun and forget the 2017 spec NA 1.8 because it is neither.


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#51
Rob Burgoon

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And like you told me this weekend: "the extra weight and power didn't turn it into an NB". 

 

Misquote.  I was talking about how 50lbs didn't make the driving experience feel numb like NB owners say.  My car is still plenty frisky and fun at 2400.  Must be the good geometry that makes driving an NB dull.


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#52
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 Must be the good geometry that makes driving an NB dull.

Would it also make drivers look better in a 99 plus compare to them being in an NA?

 

Rob, different thermostat? Is your radiator sealed forcing air through the radiator and not between it and the under tray and not around the radiator sides. Do you use the Mazda Comp piece in front of the radiator keeping air out of engine bay.  Wrap the snorkel and intake box on a test day. Then check data.

 

James, I harped, collected data and presented data. I've viewed the results, therefor it's time to be quite about the 1.6.


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#53
Rob Burgoon

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Would it also make drivers look better in a 99 plus compare to them being in an NA?

 

Rob, different thermostat? Is your radiator sealed forcing air through the radiator and not between it and the under tray and not around the radiator sides. Do you use the Mazda Comp piece in front of the radiator keeping air out of engine bay.  Wrap the snorkel and intake box on a test day. Then check data.

 

James, I harped, collected data and presented data. I've viewed the results, therefor it's time to be quite about the 1.6.

 

Regarding geometry, sure, that's what people say right?  NB easier to drive at the limit?  I'm looking like I drank too much redbull in my video.

 

 

3 pass unsealed, 160 napa stat, factory plastic piece up top.  Temps into the 200s in the sunday main.

Next test will be a 160 stat with 2 or 4 holes drilled in it.  Hoping to still have some temp control with the stat, but greater flow to the radiator.  If that doesn't work, I'll either drill more holes, gut, or pull a Wheeler (remove completely).

 

It's stupid that I'm seeing loss of temp control at all.  Even with the mighty Race Engineering motor, it shouldn't even be possible to get 30 over the stat rating.


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#54
Jamz14

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Wrapping the snorkel won't fix the overheating. I agree Rob, temp control this last weekend should not have been a problem. There is something more fundamental going on than wrong thermostat , sealed radiators, or wrapped snorkels. The car is either righteously overheating from a mechanical problem that is generating more heat, or the water flow is being restricted somewhere.

 

Are you running through the heater core?


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#55
Rob Burgoon

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Wrapping the snorkel won't fix the overheating. I agree Rob, temp control this last weekend should not have been a problem. There is something more fundamental going on than wrong thermostat , sealed radiators, or wrapped snorkels. The car is either righteously overheating from a mechanical problem that is generating more heat, or the water flow is being restricted somewhere.

 

Are you running through the heater core?

 

Agree.  Negative, bypassing it. There is a sensor in the heater hose, but it's a reputable advanced autosport adapter, shouldn't be blocking much.


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#56
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Wrapping the snorkel won't fix the overheating.

Agree, was thinking 1.6 air flow meter which has a temperature pickup feed to the ECU.

 

That ^ aside Rob, has you engine always ran at 200*F or is this something new?

 

After being straightened by James my question would be if you've hanged nothing else with the engine/cooling system, is your mass air flow sensor good? Is the wire/whatever (signal sender to the ECU) in your mass air flow sensor CLEAN. If it's not clean, the ECU will run the engine leaner/hotter.

 

Does your NA 1.8 air intake track have an air temp pickup.

 

Explanation first 3 minutes of this video.

 


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#57
Rob Burgoon

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Agree, was thinking 1.6 air flow meter which has a temperature pickup feed to the ECU.

 

That ^ aside Rob, has you engine always ran at 200*F or is this something new?

 

After being straightened by James my question would be if you've hanged nothing else with the engine/cooling system, is your mass air flow sensor good? Is the wire/whatever (signal sender to the ECU) in your mass air flow sensor CLEAN. If it's not clean, the ECU will run the engine leaner/hotter.

 

Does your NA 1.8 air intake track have an air temp pickup.

 

Explanation first 3 minutes of this video.

 

 

Temps used to be worse.  Much better with the 160* stat, but still not what I would call "good".

 

MAF hasn't been cleaned ever, but you'd think that any lean reading there would be compensated for by the fuel pressure reg tuning on the dyno?

 

No IAT sensor that I am aware of.

 

Engine is freshly dyno'd and fuel pressure tuned for max power.  my wideband calls that 12s and 13s.


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#58
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MAF hasn't been cleaned ever, but you'd think that any lean reading there would be compensated for by the fuel pressure reg tuning on the dyno?

 

Engine is freshly dyno'd and fuel pressure tuned for max power.  my wideband calls that 12s and 13s.

Me not be a genius when it comes to electronics and ECU, but what other outputs does the ECU send? Fuel injection rate, timing, ?, ?. Ask your dyno guy if something could be astray with dirty MAFS.


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#59
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Odd question. What is a good 99 hp on 7's dyno? Also what is a good 99 on mce dyno? Nothing really to add to the conversation at the moment but based on the answer to my questions I might have something to add
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#60
Jamz14

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Chris, Im not sure. Ive never been on those two dynos with the 99. You see my numbers from the dyno I use. Those numbers are probably useless to this group  and looked as though I had a car down 15 HP or more. But in reality the motor is strong and would read much different on someone elses dyno.


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