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NA8 at 2400 video at Willow Springs

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#61
luvin_the_rings

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Rob, that video was from a flipped grid quali race.  you were bearing down on the drivers in front because you are a better driver and getting better exits.

 

Also, what does your coolant look like? If its dirty at all, you could have debris in the Radiator.  What Radiator are you using? We were battling with blocked cores last season.  



#62
Rob Burgoon

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Rob, that video was from a flipped grid quali race.  you were bearing down on the drivers in front because you are a better driver and getting better exits.

 

Also, what does your coolant look like? If its dirty at all, you could have debris in the Radiator.  What Radiator are you using? We were battling with blocked cores last season.  

 

And lucked into an awesome start by the moment that I decided to shift into third, haha.

 

I've had heat issues through several new radiators and am on fresh water and wetter.


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#63
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I've had heat issues through several new radiators and am on fresh water and wetter.

Are other 1.8 NA cars at same tracks having the same heat issues?


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#64
Jamz14

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Are other 1.8 NA cars at same tracks having the same heat issues?

Nope, Mine runs good temps at the same tracks unless I am having mechanical issues. I run with heater core bypassed and no thermostat and control on cold days with tape.


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#65
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Nope, Mine runs good temps at the same tracks

Good temps?


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#66
Tom Sager

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Temps used to be worse.  Much better with the 160* stat, but still not what I would call "good".

 

MAF hasn't been cleaned ever, but you'd think that any lean reading there would be compensated for by the fuel pressure reg tuning on the dyno?

 

No IAT sensor that I am aware of.

 

Engine is freshly dyno'd and fuel pressure tuned for max power.  my wideband calls that 12s and 13s.

 

Rob, assuming the weather that weekend wasn't blistering hot (did you race in 60's or 70's degree air temps?), there has to be a cooling bug of sorts in your car.  I don't think you'll find the answer in the t-stat if you're running a 160 degree unit although pulling it out altogether and trying it that way is probably worth trying.  Assuming an accurate sensor and gauge, the car should be much cooler.  Hard to know where to start looking but is there any chance you have a restriction somewhere else?  One of the smaller hoses kinked?  Water pump issue?  Anyone else have some ideas?  On a 70 degree day and running in clean air with good aluminum radiator the water temp should be more like 175 IMO.


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#67
Rob Burgoon

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Rob, assuming the weather that weekend wasn't blistering hot (did you race in 60's or 70's degree air temps?), there has to be a cooling bug of sorts in your car.  I don't think you'll find the answer in the t-stat if you're running a 160 degree unit although pulling it out altogether and trying it that way is probably worth trying.  Assuming an accurate sensor and gauge, the car should be much cooler.  Hard to know where to start looking but is there any chance you have a restriction somewhere else?  One of the smaller hoses kinked?  Water pump issue?  Anyone else have some ideas?  On a 70 degree day and running in clean air with good aluminum radiator the water temp should be more like 175 IMO.

 

a little over 80*F that day

in 70* temps earlier the temp was indeed about 177*


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#68
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More stuff to add to this:

This weekend at VIR we had an NA8 qualify on pole for our race. (shown).

Qualifying%20Sunday%20VIR_zpsbfesnlyb.jp

 

Links to the race are shown here - (he's the brighter green one)

 

 

He didn't win, but it wasn't b/c of car. The driver is a good driver and this was his first weekend in Spec Miata. He just got outraced via drafts, etc.

 

With results like these you would be hard pressed to say the SMAC didn't come up with a good solution to the NA8.

 

FWIW: The motor is a Rossini engine that is one season old.


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#69
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Sorry xav, but if this is the criteria then you never should have changed the spec in the first place. Do you know how many nasa winner stickers rob has on his car?
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#70
Jamz14

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Good temps Bench. You know exactly what good temps are on an 80 degree day. That's what I was getting.
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#71
Rob Burgoon

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Shoot, disagreeing is easy. At 28:00 it looks like the camera car had a much worse exit but still ran him down with ease.  The draft is good but it's not THAT good.

 

Same at 30:30


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#72
Ron Alan

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There are several NA8 cars that run regularly in NASA NORCAL. At our first regional(Sonoma) a few weeks back I was able to see some dyno numbers and watch both races. The numbers were what I expected(peak HP around 99 numbers with a little less average torque) and the average finishing positions didnt change relative to who these drivers normally run around! Point being...there was no drastic change either direction...things remained about the same! Granted...one race...and just some quick observations.

 

I had 2 different drivers drive my personal 95 on test day and for the races. The motor is on its 2nd weekend(last mazda crate motor!)and FP is intentionally turned way up to keep it fat(basically stock). I've been fighting a high rpm miss that shows up as the day progresses(warm?) and had changed a few items hoping I had fixed it. Top driver took the car out last session on Test day(warm, warm track). Car never missed and he put down times(average)that would have put him in the top 3 the next day(Mark Drennan and Nick Buchanan top 2). This is what I expected to see...the car will be better when tuned but it also ran a little light that day.

 

Another driver(good driver who had never driving my car...or a NA8)finished 5th(28 car field) on Sat...he was maybe 1.5 sec off the pace of the Friday driver. In Video that night we picked up on the car missing ever so slightly on a half dozen occasions...but if you werent looking for it you wouldn't notice. Well...it wasnt hurting performance so i bumped the FP down(still very safe)for Sunday race...big mistake...after 4 laps the driver shut it down it was missing so bad(shit...but at least I got the clue it has something to do with fuel system!)

 

My point to all this...the car so far has basically performed the same. No better or worse! How is that for scientific! :)


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#73
Jamz14

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The second video is impressive Xav. The driver is able to hang without ever going to full throttle and he trail brakes almost all the way around the corners. :)


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#74
Tom Sager

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My point to all this...the car so far has basically performed the same. No better or worse! How is that for scientific! :)

 

I think that's about right.  The test I did on a short track showed basically no change in lap time.  Plus a few HP and plus 50 pounds is a wash.   On a longer track there might be a bit of improvement under 2017 rules.


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#75
Jamz14

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Tom, if a wash, what is your recommendation to change? I recognise we are only talking about one or two data points and I won't hold you to your thoughts on this.
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#76
Tom Sager

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Tom, if a wash, what is your recommendation to change? I recognise we are only talking about one or two data points and I won't hold you to your thoughts on this.

 

I don't think an NA8 making same power as a '99 (considering 5000-6850RPM) racing at the same weight with older NA style front subframe, rack and other suspension pieces can be as fast as a '99 or a VVT.  It has to be a bit lighter. 


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#77
Jamz14

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Thank you Tom. I agree. 50 lbs lighter. :) Kidding aside, that would be an guaranteed improvement. And that would be welcome in light of the fact that we have fewer few instances for rule comittees to gauge success. If this was a late model discussion I wouldn't worry about an unknown compound change because there would be all kinds of opportunities to gauge success.
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#78
MDixon

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I look forward to getting my car on track in a couple weeks. We are racing at a track my son is very comfortable with and we have tons of data from the old rule set. In the TMC series we have very fast 1.6's, 99's and 01's. Been holding my tongue and reading...


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#79
Danny Steyn

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Please note that the SMAC has, as one of its core missions, a willingness to examine anything that helps to improve parity across the various Spec Miata models. 

 

So now I am speaking on my own behalf and not on behalf of the SMAC. What I do know is that an argument that is backed up with data will do more for anyone than a random discussion on a forum. So if i was campaigning and NA 1.8, and felt that my car needed help I would consider several approaches to support my claims. Data that is compiled in a way to eliminate anomalies, and limit the variables, goes a long way to making a point. 

 

  1. I would gather data on the same day same session. I would approach a top level NB driver (99 or VVT) and ask him for his data. I would overlay the data from my NA 1.8 car over his from the same session. I would make copius notes about the ambient conditions, track conditions, car temp, lap number, tire heat cycles, tire pressures etc. If, once I had overlayed the data, and found that it did in fact support my claim that my car needed help, I would submit the raw data files, plus video files to the SMAC. The video files would allow them to throw out anomalies like drafts and bumps and skunked exits etc. 
  2. In the same session, I would get a top national driver to get in my NA 1.8 car and run as many laps as it takes for him to feel comfortable in my car. Then I would have him get into his own car and run laps in the same session. I would gather his data from both cars and overlay the data, and once again, if the data supported my assertions, I would submit the raw data files, plus video files to the SMAC. 
  3. On the same day, preferably in back to back sessions, I would run my NA 1.8 car with the plate at the old weight, and then the next session run without the plate at the new weight and gather data and video. Once again if the data supported my position I would submit the raw data files, plus video files to the SMAC.

 

All of this is easy to do. Most drivers will help if you ask them. Data and video is simple to gather. There are data gurus at every track and can help you do this if you are not sure how, and it is easy to spot a repetitive acceleration trace that is lagging another. Data is very compelling, and while one data sample might not be definitive, it does get a serious discussion going.


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#80
Rob Burgoon

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None of that is really necessary though, since the 99 and the NA8 are the same weight. A pair of dyno curves is plenty for demonstrating the NA8 is inferior pre-heatsoak.

For solving the heat soak, then yeah, some of that would work.
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