33 replies to this topic

[John Nesbitt]

 

Recently, my colleague Herb Sweeney, a driver and steward, did a presentation on Concussions in Racing.  This drew on his own experience, as well as considerable research.

 

Herb has very kindly provided his materials and worked with the DC Region webmaster to publish it all here:

 

http://www.wdcr-scca...sions-in-racing

 

I encourage all drivers (and their spouses) to look at this.  Knowing the signs and symptoms, and how best to deal with them, can help you mitigate long-term consequences.

 

My most sincere thanks to Herb for developing, presenting, and publishing this.

[av8tor]

I'm not trying to belittle concussions, but car racers are such pussies.  When you compare accidents to the time spend participating in the sport, Little League Baseball is 2.5x's more dangerous than amateur car racing.  Club racing is fun and very safe.  If you want a dangerous sport so you can convince your neighbors that you are a risk taker, go ride a bull.  But stop being overly dramatic about car racing. It doesn't do the sport any favors.  

I encourage all drivers and their spouses to look at the number of actual injuries in armature sports car racing and realize that paragliding in the Bahamas is grossly more dangerous than racing a Spec Miata at Sebring.  

To put things in perspective, I only know 1 auto racer who was concussed and that was in a class 1 buggy at night in AZ.  I know 2 kids in my neighborhood who have been knocked out playing baseball.  Conversely, I don't know a sport bike racer who hasn't been concussed.

[av8tor]

If you want danger, take up an athletic sport, not a country club activity like club racing...

https://youtu.be/grw1vokHp30

[Danny Steyn]

I'm not trying to belittle concussions, but car racers are such pussies.  When you compare accidents to the time spend participating in the sport, Little League Baseball is 2.5x's more dangerous than amateur car racing.  Club racing is fun and very safe.  If you want a dangerous sport so you can convince your neighbors that you are a risk taker, go ride a bull.  But stop being overly dramatic about car racing. It doesn't do the sport any favors.  

I encourage all drivers and their spouses to look at the number of actual injuries in armature sports car racing and realize that paragliding in the Bahamas is grossly more dangerous than racing a Spec Miata at Sebring.  

To put things in perspective, I only know 1 auto racer who was concussed and that was in a class 1 buggy at night in AZ.  I know 2 kids in my neighborhood who have been knocked out playing baseball.  Conversely, I don't know a sport bike racer who hasn't been concussed.

 

Go into any concrete wall backwards at over 60mph in a Spec Miata and then write the above paragraph - I dare you. The floor of the Miata will pull up as you weight gets slammed backwards, smacking your head into the cage (and roof if you are tall enough). You might even crack the roof and your helmet. And it will take you weeks if not months to get the ringing out the ears, stand up straight without falling over. And hopefully your Dr. will sign off on your medical, allowing you to go racing again. I know of two SM drivers who have never raced a single race after suffering severe concussions, however both of their accidents were frontal impacts

 

And surprisingly, despite 10 years of pro motocross, multiple fractures, multiple knee, ankle and other surgeries,  I never had a concussion racing motocross.

[av8tor]

this from the guy who called SM racing, "MX with a cage".  My point is, the sport is very safe and while it benefits everyone to take advantage of the safety features of modern technology. Hyping the danger, which is minimal, is counter productive.

I know a photographer who was killed when his camera hit him in the face, do I wear a helmet when I shoot my spring catalog, or tell my neighbors what a dangerous day I had shooting 2 young models in pajamas...

Pro MX racing in SA, yea, there is no promotion like self promotion.  But hey DS, what ever it takes to make you feel special you crazy risk taker...

[Diller]

*Thread about identifying concussions and placing awareness on something to make the sport safer.*

 

Response:

"Guys in cars are pussies! Get in some tights and straddle a banana for hours at a time to know what real danger is!!!"

Add soft piano music to help you realize how serious it is.

 

God I love the internet. 

[novax8]

Wow....I almost never post but av8tor you are a complete 2 brain cell moron. You take a nice informative post about a real topic and use it to stroke your own fake badass ego. Nice work. Injuries happen in lots of sports....concussions in racing occur for sure. The post wasn't about a tough guy d*ck measuring contest but rather someone posting about a real and serious topic.

[Ron Alan]

av8tor vs novax8...winner with a pair of 8's!

 

Thank god we have 2 brain cell Morons like av8tor so we have the freedom to call them out when they have pulled out their measuring stick!

 

In the famous words or Sargent Hulka...lighten up Francis! And I will direct that at both 8's! 

[Erik Hardy]

I agree Av8tor, this incomplete list below is far too short. We should stop all safety development and procedures because car racing is already safe enough.

 

https://en.wikipedia...s_in_motorsport

 

Even the amateur racecars have a long way to go to match the professional racecars (The good ones)...

[Danica Davison]

Kevin (Av8tor), while I agree with you that the sport has become A LOT safer ... I still think there is still a risk of concussions ... even in our little pussy miatas.  Everyone knows I am all for trolling, but I don't think safety is something to troll about.  It can literally happen to anybody, every time we go out on track, and I would hate to see even my enemies get injured. Yes, it is not as common as it is in football, hockey, rugby, or any of those high contact sports ... but it still happens. 

 

Concussions can occur with just a quick jolt, meaning the head doesn't have to be hit with anything. Concussion comes from the Latin term meaning "to shake violently". It is very possible for your brain to shake inside your skull if you were to hit a concrete wall at even 40 mph or less and coming to a sudden stop.

[Jim Drago]

I only know 1 auto racer who was concussed and that was in a class 1 buggy at night in AZ.  I know 2 kids in my neighborhood who have been knocked out playing baseball.  Conversely, I don't know a sport bike racer who hasn't been concussed.

two

In 2009 at one of the races at Road America.. on lap 3 or so I was comfortably starting to pull away in a brand new car that was built on a 16k chassis and minding my own business.  I was mid corner at Canada corner. The late Harry Manning and Voytek had a disagreement heading into the corner. Neither wanted to give and neither was making the corner. They came in bounced off each other, Manning glanced off the inside wall and then proceeded to drill me in the side while I was halfway through the corner at 70-80 mph. It destroyed my brand new car.  I was so mad,  I didn't realize I had a concussion, but I did. I raced the next day and won, but felt shitty all day.  Still mad about that deal, neither apologized for destroying my car or how I was caught in their pissing match, but both managed to tell me how it was the other guys fault

Went home and proceeded to feel like shit the next two weeks and was not sure what was wrong, never went to doctor, but sure of what happened now looking back as I had all the symptoms and my head hit the door bar pretty good ( before a containment seat) 

 

 

I do agree racing is extremely safe now, especially Sm, but like everything in life ...prepare for the worst!

 

Jim

[MotoFusi]

5 I think but I've had so many my memory might been blurred. One racing Motocross at 16 years old. Fell while leading and was struck in the back of the head by another bike. I have it on 8mm. Also at 16 ejected from a Datsun 510 in a roll over. Both of these resulted in total unconsciousness. The roll over for more than 4 hours.

I was a motorcop and got left turned right of way violated and landed on my head. Sat up and couldn't see. I thought "this ain't good" then realized my industrial size mace can had blown up. Road rash and another concussion. At least I wasn't blind! LOL

 

Racing a minisprint at Peru, Indiana. Big flip where I was upside down looking over the top of the fence. I thought "This ain't good" and was right again. Broken wrist and another concussion.

 

I switched to full size sprint cars, justifying the money by saying they were much safer than Minisprints. Well that ain't so........A nothing flip resulted in another concussion.

 

After the first concussion with a $75 helmet I have always worn top of the line Arai's or Bell's. I now wear the Simpson Venator Pro. Another concussion and I'm done with racing and motorcycles. I know it has affected me. There are times I can't remember good friends names for many seconds and words just get "stuck" while in normal conversation.

 

All these concussions resulted in terrible headaches for two to four weeks, blurred vision and some short term memory loss. Used to laugh it all off as "Part of it" if you race. I don't laugh about it anymore. I never got a concussion Road Racing motorcycles. Never hit anything hard which is lucky as most my races were at the old Sears Point where there was solid stuff everywhere and no runoff.

 

I believe in wearing the lightest quality helmet you can afford and a full containment seat.

[av8tor]

Wow....I almost never post but av8tor you are a complete 2 brain cell moron. You take a nice informative post about a real topic and use it to stroke your own fake badass ego. Nice work. Injuries happen in lots of sports....concussions in racing occur for sure. The post wasn't about a tough guy d*ck measuring contest but rather someone posting about a real and serious topic.

 

sorry guys, I was just messing with Danny S.  He is such an easy target sometimes and noticed he was online.  Didn't expect anyone to take me seriously after I posted the bicycle crashes.

The concussion information was thoughtful and relevant.  For now on I will keep the witty sarcasm on my ballet forum where it is better appreciated.

[av8tor]

Kevin (Av8tor), while I agree with you that the sport has become A LOT safer ... I still think there is still a risk of concussions ... even in our little pussy miatas.  Everyone knows I am all for trolling, but I don't think safety is something to troll about.  It can literally happen to anybody, every time we go out on track, and I would hate to see even my enemies get injured. Yes, it is not as common as it is in football, hockey, rugby, or any of those high contact sports ... but it still happens. 

 

Concussions can occur with just a quick jolt, meaning the head doesn't have to be hit with anything. Concussion comes from the Latin term meaning "to shake violently". It is very possible for your brain to shake inside your skull if you were to hit a concrete wall at even 40 mph or less and coming to a sudden stop.

Of course it happens, but I think we have to be careful and do some actual risk analysis before we start putting out ideas that gain momentum and warp into a policy that addresses a low frequency event.  A racer who is a medical Dr. did an 8 year study at the Glen, that analysed every injury causing wreck I have a Dr. friend trying to get a copy of it so I can share. Does anyone know if NASA or SCCA has a database of injuries.  If they don't that is the starting point.  I think you will find, that if you want to reduce injuries in club racing the most bang for the buck would be to take away Mark Gibbon's golf cart keys.  Sorry, that was a joke less I be accused of having only 2 brain cells.

[Danica Davison]

SCCA needs to get a database in general first before they add that in.  But, I think it is a good idea. 

[mellen]

Go into any concrete wall backwards at over 60mph in a Spec Miata and then write the above paragraph - I dare you. The floor of the Miata will pull up as you weight gets slammed backwards, smacking your head into the cage (and roof if you are tall enough). You might even crack the roof and your helmet. And it will take you weeks if not months to get the ringing out the ears, stand up straight without falling over. And hopefully your Dr. will sign off on your medical, allowing you to go racing again. I know of two SM drivers who have never raced a single race after suffering severe concussions, however both of their accidents were frontal impacts

 

And surprisingly, despite 10 years of pro motocross, multiple fractures, multiple knee, ankle and other surgeries,  I never had a concussion racing motocross.

I have had 2 at Road America, 1 backwards into the concrete wall at 5 and 1 forward into the wall at the exit of the kink. neither where fun. 

[John Nesbitt]

SCCA needs to get a database in general first before they add that in.  But, I think it is a good idea. 

 

The SCCA itself does not maintain such a database.  The Club’s insurers might, but I doubt that they would be willing to share information.

 

SCCA does not have a strong history with consistent process.  I would be very, very cautious about using a database of injuries as the foundation for any sort of policy.  At-event incident capture (“medical  coding”, if you will) is sketchy on its best day.  Safety stewards are not medical people.  Standards and practice and skill/diligence for EMS and medical screening vary widely across the country and even across events within a region.  I would be skeptical about any conclusions drawn from such a data set.

 

Understand that the GCR provides some perverse incentives for drivers involved in this kind of incident.  Read section 2.3.2.D. if you doubt me.  What you share with the event medical staff is between you and your conscience.  However, if you tell them that you took a knock to the head, do not be surprised to find your license suspended pending clearance.

 

When I am safety steward, I encounter “maybe/maybe not” cases.  If the event medical staff do not say definitely that head injury is involved, my preference is to involve the driver’s wife.  She usually takes the matter firmly in hand without the need for dire license consequences.

 

The point of my posting (and Herb’s presentation) is that, aside from any formal GCR requirements, self-care should be on every driver’s mind.

[callumhay]

This has turned in to a really interesting topic. The website that John directed us to is very informative. The stories from those with experience are good also. A few years ago at the 12 hrs of Sebring there were 2 fatalities..both spectators in the paddock. In one I believe they were standing on the back of a golf cart, taking a picture and lost balance while the cart moved forward. They fell backwards and suffered trauma to the back of the head.Seemingly benign decisions can have dire consequences. Anyone who has lived long enough probably has a story to tell of a good day that went bad. Personally I think I'm taking more risk driving to the track than driving on it. Also the only mild concussion I've ever had is hitting my head with the end of a socket while working under a car in the paddock...dumbass.. With racing, we take steps in preparation with safety equipment and hopefully take care of ourselves and one another on the track. In a lot of respects we are more prepared for racing than we are in our daily lives. That's our best defense and the rest is probably out with our control. As someone who has a career away from the hobby, I understand that it's not risk less. I'm comfortable racing to my limits and having fun doing that. It's more difficult for those watching who are more likely to worry. Someone asked me if the other drivers on the track try to intimidate you when you're a rookie. My experience in Central Florida was the complete opposite. I feel that just about everybody is looking to race cleanly and trying to look out for one another. There have been times when I've lost control of the car and been very thankful for the reactions of others. At least that's my perspective as a club racer who's not too worried about finishing position. For those who are willing to push harder, I'm not sure that they are at higher or lesser risk. I still think SM racing is about the most fun you can have with 4 wheels while reducing risk as much as possible.
Cal Hay

[av8tor]

John Nesbitt, sorry for messing up your post at the get go - I am interested to get the 8 yr study that the MD (racer) did at Watkins Glen.  Even if I have to pay the $50 bucks to buy it, I hope it might shed some light on the real dangers faced by racers.  I know his conclusion was ARMCO and Concrete barriers have no place on a race track .  I take safety very seriously but as an aviation professional I know 2 things for sure: 1. with out empirical evidence it is very easy to find the wrong conclusion, 2. the easiest way to effect desired change is often hidden in plain view, but is no where near as sexy as the problem you thought was the problem.  (eg we could reduce the number of head injuries by 75% if we got rid of scooters in the paddock).  

 

Another example is similar to the folks falling off the golf cart.

 

Someone saw me get in my car with my FIA certified carbon/kevlar open face helmet and immediately starting berating me for not protecting my face.  I later showed them a study that showed the number of fatalities caused by impacts (roll cage bars and steering wheels) torquing the chin bar and separating the C1 cervical spine causing immediate death.  I also demonstrated my complete inability to find a single auto injury, (where the occupant was wearing a helmet) that caused severe facial injury or vision loss in an enclosed sports car.  Sometimes the apparent is apparently wrong...  It is my understanding that the professional organizations started mandating enclosed helmets because they also mandate air supply systems to reduce the incidence of carbon dioxide and monoxide poisoning.  Someone earlier mentioned using the very best light weight helmet to reduce the chance of a concussion, I have read a study that demonstrated in many situations, less expensive helmets with more foam and softer fiberglass caused less concussion damage than harder "professional" helmets.  This is also the finding of a study conducted by the NFL.  They have gone to a reactive foam that is initially soft but becomes harder based on the speed of impact. It is a complicated playing field that takes real evidence to negotiate correctly.

[John Nesbitt]

John Nesbitt, sorry for messing up your post at the get go - I am interested to get the 8 yr study that the MD (racer) did at Watkins Glen.  Even if I have to pay the $50 bucks to buy it, I hope it might shed some light.  I take safety very seriously but as an aviation professional I know 2 things for sure: 1. with out empirical evidence it is very easy to find the wrong conclusion, 2. the easiest way to effect desired change is often hidden in plain view, but is no where near as sexy.  (eg we could reduce the number of head injuries by 75% if we got rid of motorcycles in the paddock).  

 

A study done by a single researcher, covering all events at a single track over a span of years could well yield some interesting data.

 

I think that we all agree that there are a million ways to knock oneself on the head.  At VIR a few years ago, a crew member push started an FE with a dead battery in the pit lane.  The engine caught, the car lurched forward, and the fellow lost his balance, cracking his skull (literally).  He ended up being helicoptered for treatment.  He is OK now, but it was a long haul.

 

Standards evolve.  When I was very young, I was hammering a nail one day.  I was using both hands for leverage, swung back a little too energetically, and drove the clawfoot end into my skull.  (Children's skull bones are still fairly soft.)  My mother washed the wound and told me to be more careful.  Different times.   ;-)