79 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

I spend as much time as i can with the new people who ask for help.  I watch video, look at data, critique race craft all in an effort to make them better and safer for everyone.  At some level some people should just not be on the track.  It is silly to say the rights of the individual outweigh the safety of the many just because they want to be part of the club.  

 

Shit like this at the run-offs is unacceptable.  Its the national championship.  It is not a regional, even if Denny wants it to be.  

[LarryKing]

 

Its the national championship.  It is not a regional, even if Denny wants it to be.  

 

He said THAT!? You're kidding? I've got to go back and read this entire thread so I can see for myself where he said such a ridiculous thing!!!

 

Update: I re-read everything and couldn't find where Denny said he wanted the Runoffs to be a regional. Are you sure it was in this thread?

[Todd Green]

for those of you pointing out mixed run groups.  We are talking SM Super Tour events.  

 

For those of you who don't understand why we point out mixed group racing, it is because people keep crying "safety".  It has nothing to do with wanting to have an elite series.  That is a different issue (which I addressed separately).  The point is, in mixed-class racing, that you see much higher speed differentials, larger traffic problems, etc. and it all manages to work.  Take the 25 Hours of Thunderhill for example.  In 2016 (didn't look at other years) there was a whopping ~35% difference between the fastest and slowest car there (not to mention in the dark and lapping backmarkers god-knows how many times).  15% and lapping twice starts to sound like a dream.

 

Don't get me wrong, my personal views are that only the best of the best should be at Runoffs.  Ideally the race is decided on talent and not the luck of who manages to catch lapped traffic the best.  But this needs to be done via the rules and stated purpose.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  Nor can you use spurious arguments like "safety".

 

On a side note, the percentage, whatever it is decided to be, should be based on pole.  It takes all weather (and oil dropped, gravel thrown all over a corner etc. etc.) out of the equation.  I don't buy that it is too complicated(*).  We get real-time data from races now for goodness' sake.  It'd be trivial to add the functionality to spit out a cutoff point based on a percentage of pole time.

 

* Not to say that the person who had to implement it didn't have political battles to fight and something is better than nothing, but no reason to not to want to improve. 

[MotoFusi]

I am a slow guy. I am an old guy. I would love to run Indy but I know I have no business competing at the runoff's. I thought long and hard about the Super Tour at my home track Mid Ohio. I decided to go. I was within the proposed 105% rule. It is still pretty liberal.

[Bench Racer]

Give me a F'ing break with respect to the lame safety excuse. How many of you amateur club racers insert safety into your racecraft when the yellow flag is waving. Other than, if I slow down I could loose a position of more.

 

Talk about safety, how about this race group for the Firecracker Bonneau Double Divisonal July 15 & 16, 2017 at Blackhawk Farm.

Race Group 4, B-SPEC,T2,T3,T4,ITA,ITB,ITC,ITJ,ITR, ITS,SMT,SM5,S944,SMG. If you don't understand the safety you'd be a perfect fit to be on the supps committee or whatever position makes the race groups. If your ass was in a Spec Miata/B-Spec when a Porsche T2 car came to over take, you'd understand how quick shit can go south. 

 

Do ya think maybe someone should look at acceleration and top speeds of these cars?

 

Side point, I know what SMT is and don't have a clue what SM5 and SMG are. Couldn't find it within the SCCA CenDiv secrets.

[DrDomm]

We can talk in circles all day, because this isn't black and white.  It's about setting an arbitrary standard that reflects a level of skill and preparation reserved for events that are supposed to feature the "best" of amateur SCCA racers.  The word "best" is subjective, but at 115% I don't think that standard is met.  In my opinion we might as well remove any standard at that point.  I really think 107-110% is a fair, but generous standard for Majors/Runoffs.

 

The great thing about SCCA is that there are many other opportunities if you aren't to that standard, yet.

 

My interactions with the car in question at M-O made me feel hesitant.  I did NOT think he was predictable.  At one point he really affected the momentum of the car ahead of me.  I was just happy to get by safely.

 

It's funny how some people don't think you should qualify for the Runoffs without a point standard, while some people think you should be allowed to run without a time/speed standard.  I think the latter is more important.

[LarryKing]

SM5 is NC cars. I'm guessing SMG (global?) is ND cars

[David L]

"Give me a F'ing break with respect to the lame safety excuse. How many of you amateur club racers insert safety into your racecraft when the yellow flag is waving. Other than, if I slow down I could loose a position of more"

 

Jim's whole reason for starting this thread seemed to be solely based on SAFETY, nobody is asking him to stop racing they are saying they are scared of what might happen when 50 of the best SM drivers come barreling down on him, no one is going to lift. Your argument is not based on reality. He is a real danger in the situation at hand, he does not belong at a fully subscribed National championship event, even if he thinks it might be cool. .

[FTodaro]

I am going to go back to what I started with.

 

My point is Not related to the current situation where someone who has raced for many years, has on his list to go to the runoffs. I hope he makes it.

 

My point is that we have set up a bad situation. We no longer have to qualify for the runoffs, its just participation, not qualification. We no longer have a National vs. Regional license structure so we really have no system of on-the-job training if you will. I think that is unsafe.

 

So its not about us lending a hand and trying to coach someone, that is not an appropriate check on the process of putting qualified people into this moderately dangerous hobby, with out confirming they have at least minimum skills. 

 

Someone with a novice level experience can go to the runoffs.

 

That is my opinion, i could be wrong.

[Bench Racer]

 

 

Jim's whole reason for starting this thread seemed to be solely based on SAFETY, nobody is asking him to stop racing they are saying they are scared of what might happen when 50 of the best SM drivers come barreling down on him, no one is going to lift. Your argument is not based on reality. He is a real danger in the situation at hand, he does not belong at a fully subscribed National championship event, even if he thinks it might be cool. .

First off, your comment is  not real world.

 

Second, when talking safety, why talk out of both sides of one's mouth. Off pace driver safety hazard, full throttle during yellow flag meets safety criteria. Have you ever been at a race track and viewed the results of a driver error during a yellow flag, as in crushing a safety workers legs? It sticks with you.

 

Only the SCCA rules decide who does and doesn't belong at a National Championship event.

[davew]

Just to play devils advocate, and point out some irony. Mr. 115% finished 1 position behind Jim Drago on Sunday, and in front of Sterns, Rutherford and Novak.

 

I feel that we have a perfect storm created by the SCCA higher-ups. The Runoffs are at Indy, and it is a very expensive venue to rent. Thus the club needs as many participants (revenue) as they can get. So they made it easy to qualify for the event. This gives guys like Mr 115% the opportunity to run a bucket list event. Although under a points based qualifying system, he would not be invited. Just as any good racer, he found the loop hole in the rules and is exploiting it to his advantage. I believe this driver would not be running Majors if it was not for the Indy Runoffs.

 

At many Majors, and some Divisionals, the SM group is accustomed to running by themselves. Thus very little lapped traffic to deal with. With exception of SRF, every other group runs mixed races. Try being the B-spec running within 1 second of the track record, while being passed by 2 Porsches in T2. As long as the slower traffic is polite, holds a normal line and is predictable, I have no issues with slow cars on the track.

 

Call me old school, but, I do have issues with our single tier licensing. I talked to a gentleman at MO that had not raced in over 10 years. Without even hitting the track he was granted a full comp license. I regularly deal with people coming out of Skippy or other school programs that, for a fee, are given full comp licenses. Having never attended an SCCA race as anything but a spectator. Never done a real race start, and without full knowledge of the flag/signal rules. Let's at least see them in a real race before granting access to the top level competition.

 

If Mr 115% wishes to change his car # to 115, give me a call and I will make new graphics for you, no charge.

 

dave

[David L]

First off, your comment is  not real world.

 

Second, when talking safety, why talk out of both sides of one's mouth. Off pace driver safety hazard, full throttle during yellow flag meets safety criteria. Have you ever been at a race track and viewed the results of a driver error during a yellow flag, as in crushing a safety workers legs? It sticks with you.

 

Only the SCCA rules decide who does and doesn't belong at a National Championship event.

I scoured the SCCA website for the SPEED LIMIT during yellow flags and could not find it, it seems to solely rely on the drivers judgment

 

How does Jim's concern with this 1 driver at this 1 event compare to someone crashing into a corner worker under yellow?

 

And I have been present when a spec miata driver has crashed into a safety vehicle under yellow, the take from it was that this driver is a danger to himself and OTHERS but the SCCA didn't do anything yhat I am aware of, that racer raced again, if the community has concerns that will not be addressed by the SCCA than it is up to the community to take care of it.

 

Jim tried to address it with this driver and was rejected, he turned to the community for help.

[BNaumann]

How does Jim's concern with this 1 driver at this 1 event compare to someone crashing into a corner worker under yellow?

I think the point is there is nothing inherently unsafe about a slow car on track, but the front of the field doesn't lift for anything.

[David L]

I think the point is there is nothing inherently unsafe about a slow car on track, but the front of the field doesn't lift for anything.

Yes, both things are true, that is why in THIS 1 race with 1 driver it is a concern.

 

And I don't think the FRONT of the field would be the FRONT of the field if they were lifting and waving people by.

 

It is in my opinion ridiculous to try and make the argument that aggressive(maybe not right word) driving is either unsafe or a detriment to the class

 

As in my video it is clearly the fault of the FASTER ITA car that is 30 seconds off pace of an SSM car. This  was in a regional where he BELONGED, I held no ill will towards him, he made a mistake everyone does, This type of driving DOES NOT BELONG at a National championship event no matter how you feel.  

.

[luvin_the_rings]

Let's at least see them in a real race before granting access to the top level competition.

 

I agree with this, this is why I chose NASA ground school, and to keep racing NASA events.  

 

I can't believe nobody mentioned that SCCA ground school only happens once or twice a year on the entire west coast, where at NASA events, there are people learning EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND.  If you want people to succeed, and not drag the group down, give them the tools to do so.  If somebody is deemed hazardous (within a gap of 110%-115% of lap record)  then just send them back to school. 

 

Or better yet, have more schooling time. 

 

-Z

[Johnny D]

Just throwing this out...

 

Is it clear to everyone that..

test Day: most of your learning is here, track, set-ups, etc.

Warm ups: to warm tires, set pressures, check fluids/systems/data, get a feel for the track, not really practice.

Practice: Learning track, practice Qualifing times, not racing with others. (unless that's what your practicing)

Qual: You should know the track fairly well with a fairly good time (115% I guess), putting down one flyer, Not close to others to not getting held up, (unless drafting), not Racing with others.

Racing: Competing, door to door, bumper to bumper, not learning track. Not just out there.

 

Agree ? That's how I see, but I don't see others following some times.

J~

[davew]

That is much more true at pro events. Most club racers drive the same no matter what you call the session. The only real difference is how the session starts

[wheel]

You guys are spoiled.  As a guy who runs an ASedan in a group with GT1 cars, and others, I have been lapped a couple of times in a Majors race.  I also lapped all the GT1 cars in a rain race.  What you experienced at MidO is pretty much a normal day at the track for everyone except SRF and SM.  We used to run in a group with SM, and it was always a chore to lap you guys without screwing up your races.  It might be good, when there is a big (diverse) SM group, to ask the Chief Steward to caution the slower guys to watch their mirrors.   The CS might also warn the corner workers to throw the blue flag when the leaders are coming through.

[Johnny D]

Is a skill set required in these upper level events ??

 

Vicious circle ? Improve quality, reduce the field, go back to multi Class racing to fill the field ?

Just askin

J~

[Steve Scheifler]

You guys are spoiled. As a guy who runs an ASedan in a group with GT1 cars, and others, I have been lapped a couple of times in a Majors race. I also lapped all the GT1 cars in a rain race. What you experienced at MidO is pretty much a normal day at the track for everyone except SRF and SM. We used to run in a group with SM, and it was always a chore to lap you guys without screwing up your races. It might be good, when there is a big (diverse) SM group, to ask the Chief Steward to caution the slower guys to watch their mirrors. The CS might also warn the corner workers to throw the blue flag when the leaders are coming through.

But as several have said before, the critical difference for SM & SRF is that there are almost always larger packs running together. When cars are spread out more a small delay to get around lapped cars may cost you some gap, but it probably won't cost you multiple positions or cause you to lose the draft with no hope of getting it again running solo. In most classes it's a big deal to see even TWO cars run close the entire race so if anything the occassional lapper is as likely to keep them close as to break them up. Better for the TV audience.