112 replies to this topic

[Peter Olivola]

Maybe my experience is different.  I have always tried to facilitate protests.  It's easier to tear the paper up if it proves unnecessary than fight about doing it in the first place.  Nevertheless, there are procedures in place to overcome every one of your complaints.  They just need to be used.

 

I'll second everything Frank has been saying and add push-back to your continued efforts to lay it off on the competitors. Maybe you need to hang out and observe firsthand what we go through when trying to file a protest for on-track incidents, because your experience must be very diffetent.

As for meeting directly with the other driver, way easier said than done. Sometimes it works, often it doesn't. There are no personality requirements to race and there all all types out there with different ways to deal with things. It takes two making the effort for the direct approach to work, assuming you can even find the other guy. And if you fail, then what? Too late to file paper. Some official structure around it can set certain expectations and make a huge difference.

There are many cases where we have followed procedures to the letter only to wonder later why we bothered, so stop making it sound like the class is just complaining and expecting the club to do it all. That's total BS and actually jyet another poke in the eye from someone on the outside not interested in getting the facts before criticizing.

[davew]

Screw that.  If anyone pitches a fit over decals taped over, they can go piss up a rope.

 

SCCA has rules on the books about keeping your engine bay clean.  If there was ever a reason to give up on the club, that's it right there, regardless of whether they are enforced.  Just being on the books is enough.

 

Rob, CHILL BABY

 

As I said the car looked awfull. Dirty was putting it mildly. Multiple spots of sticker residue that had not been cleaned and had dirt stuck to it. Duct tape falling off the car. Blue painters tape on a white car. Tire marks everywhere. Multiple contingency stickers that had been "tire swirled". Rubber marks that where probably 3 weekends old. A fellow competitor spent 5 minutes with simple green and a clay bar and the car looked way better. An afternoon and $30 in cleaning supplies and it would be more than presentable.

 

As I said, this car looked bad and the driver deserved to be spoken to for not bringing a presentable car. But he deserved nothing more than a quick conversation. Take at least a little pride in what you are driving.

[Johnny D]

https://www.thesun.c...r-1-85-million/

 

J~

[Tom Sager]

Maybe my experience is different.  I have always tried to facilitate protests.  It's easier to tear the paper up if it proves unnecessary than fight about doing it in the first place.  Nevertheless, there are procedures in place to overcome every one of your complaints.  They just need to be used.

Having run some NASA races and many SCCA races and having been involved here and there over the years in contact deliberations, there is a big difference in how the 2 organizations handle it and I have to say that the NASA process is far more satisfactory in my experience.  Twice I've been to NASA contact impound.  In both cases the other driver and I were able to review the incident together quickly with an official and move on. In one of the cases I wasn't happy with the official's decision, but the relationship with the other driver afterwards was good.  There is real value in an immediate review and doing so as a responsibility with a 3rd party rather than as a protest participant.  Parties tend to be less defensive in a review process and you don't have to go looking for someone who might be among family members, friends or busy doing something else or not wanting to have the conversation at all.  The NASA approach is a much better forum IMO.  It promotes a friendly resolution and changes your mindset thereafter. 

 

My only protest for contact filed at an SCCA event didn't end very well as the protest put the other driver in a defensive position from the get-go and he wasn't very forthcoming.  He was lucky it was ruled a "racing incident" by his home region steward and his apology to me afterward was pretty hollow.

[Sean - MiataCage]

If SCCA would get into the current technology age, we could and should solve a whole bunch of this with electronic log books.   It takes some of the subjectivity out of the equation.   If Driver A is involved in contact far more than other drivers but swears it's not his/her fault (and maybe it isn't) it at least gives a data point and points at poor decision making process.  Quit putting the car in a place that results in contact.   Turn it into a teachable moment...... Or maybe it is the drivers fault and continues to hit people weekend after weekend.

 

Having real world data from different events and stewards makes it impossible for a repeat offender to cry about it never happening before and how clean a driver he/she is and a Steward with no knowledge of the particular driver can be educated with facts about his/her driving experience.

 

I am one that currently supports the protest process and think it works some of the time.  As others have mentioned all too often protests are deemed "racing incidents" and nothing ever comes of it.   Last time I checked, race cars don't crash into each other on pre-grid, so something (driver induced) is happening on track that is causing contact.   Those are not racing incidents and deserve some sort of penalty from mild to Drissi.

 

The contact impound thing is good, but in my opinion this problem doesn't get completely solved until we move into the electronic age and proactively start working to prevent contact before it happens.  Stewards could call out drivers prior to the first on track session reminding them that they are in a position with enough points that any contact during this event could result in suspension of license or whatever the mothership deems is the appropriate penalties for accumulated points in a given time.

 

Sean

[Alberto]

If SCCA would get into the current technology age, we could and should solve a whole bunch of

Sean

 

How do we do that?  I have various ideas on product development but don't want to waste my time.

[Rob Burgoon]

Rob, CHILL BABY

 

As I said the car looked awfull. Dirty was putting it mildly. Multiple spots of sticker residue that had not been cleaned and had dirt stuck to it. Duct tape falling off the car. Blue painters tape on a white car. Tire marks everywhere. Multiple contingency stickers that had been "tire swirled". Rubber marks that where probably 3 weekends old. A fellow competitor spent 5 minutes with simple green and a clay bar and the car looked way better. An afternoon and $30 in cleaning supplies and it would be more than presentable.

 

As I said, this car looked bad and the driver deserved to be spoken to for not bringing a presentable car. But he deserved nothing more than a quick conversation. Take at least a little pride in what you are driving.

 

That's what my car looks like.  Would you like some rope?

[Rob Burgoon]

Stewards could call out drivers prior to the first on track session reminding them that they are in a position with enough points that any contact during this event could result in suspension of license or whatever the mothership deems is the appropriate penalties for accumulated points in a given time.

 

Sean

 

You're giving an awful lot of credit to stewards that have more pressing matters like lunch to worry about

[Ron Alan]

That's what my car looks like.  Would you like some rope?

I can vouch to this comment

 

Obviously NASA SoCal would seem to be pretty lax as Rob has never washed his car I believe! But just as a heads up Rob...there are officials in NorCal that will have a word with you if they happen to see your car in the paddock! And if Jerry sees a car that doesn't meet the 50/50 rule...you wont be attending until it is repaired!

[MotoFusi]

I'm no expert by any stretch and have not had any significant car contact (none) in SCCA despite my penchant for spinning My very first SM race was NASA at NCM. The second corner, I hit the inside gator far too hard and spun (surprise, right?). A car hit me going by on the outside. Took the whole nose off my car. LOL

 

 We went to impound and filled out the half page incident report and went back to my pit. My fault, no question.  I was called to the trailer where the SM honcho told me he was going to revoke my provisional license for rough driving because the other driver involved said so and that I had taken it 4 wide. I took responsibility for spinning but the rest was BS. He told me to go get my video. He reviewed it and started backing up. I was being passed, got pinched and made a poor choice.

 

Two sides to every incident. Video is fantastic, does not always tell the story but what it does show is fact. If you don't have a mechanism to get to the facts and no way to hold people accountable for their actions you have then created a culture of "Have at it boys". More and more contact results.

 

NASA damage policy works.

 

I learned two things that day, I can still get tunnel vision at my advanced age and all the years I've raced and Caveman can stitch the nose of a Miata back on completely with zip ties............ A true magician.

[Sean - MiataCage]

You're giving an awful lot of credit to stewards that have more pressing matters like lunch to worry about

 

Agreed, but you can't manage a Steward problem if you can't measure it, and measuring the points situation via technology would help.   I would hope that it would also point out problem areas and problem stewards and if they don't want to do it, I would think that it would be very easy to automate an e-mail blast prior to an event to any driver who is at a certain level of points or in jeopardy of getting in more trouble.

 

While I agree with what I think your position is on the stewards, that is a management issue that can be remedied versus a personnel issue where they may not exist.  Both in my eyes are fixable if we have data..... This can not be subjective any longer.  Driver A did X at the last 3 events he/she attended.  If there are stewards who are only there for the shrimp and whistle then they need to go.

 

Sean 

[Sean - MiataCage]

How do we do that?  I have various ideas on product development but don't want to waste my time.

 

That one is above my knowledge level, but I am told that Motorsports Reg already has something in place that could be implemented in a very short period of time.   I think $$$$ and control are the issues, not the solution but I only know what I hear and have no first hand knowledge of the situation.

[Rob Burgoon]

I can vouch to this comment

 

Obviously NASA SoCal would seem to be pretty lax as Rob has never washed his car I believe! But just as a heads up Rob...there are officials in NorCal that will have a word with you if they happen to see your car in the paddock! And if Jerry sees a car that doesn't meet the 50/50 rule...you wont be attending until it is repaired!

 

I've raced in NASA nor cal plenty of times, never so much as a peep.  All they want is the competing decals taped over which, while annoying, is understandable.  As far as anyone complaining about tape on a car, I'm sure there's more rope around here somewhere...

[Bench Racer]

06/12/17- Preliminary Minutes What Do You Think

GCR

2. #21994 (Tyler Brown) Add an Impound Requirement for On Track Contact

 

The Club Racing Board has received quite a few letters over the past years expressing concern over the many incidents of car-to-car contact at our Club Racing events. The topic is also a common item on the many racing forums.

 

The Club Racing Board is seeking comments on requiring mandatory impounding of any cars involved in a car-to-car contact.

 

Should the driver and car be required to report to impound immediately after the session is over?

 

If so, Stewards will investigate the contact and, if necessary, take action against the offending party.

 

This would also be an opportunity for the parties involved in the contact to discuss it in a neutral environment.

 

From my perspective the three points above complete our needs at impound other than car-to-car contact tracking which may be tracked per Proposal/Comments below.

 

To respond to above request, write letter to https://www.crbscca.com/  

 

Electronic Log Books, next year, next year may never come because of whatever issues within the SCCA. 

 

The SCCA request above seems logical to be step one.

 

Step two below seems to be logical. Maybe we as a class need to take on the responsibility of providing addendum pages (identical page) with support from the SCCA Stewards and Chief Scrutineers. 

 

Proposal/Comments

 

What stops the SCCA/or Spec Miata class from adding an addendum page to our log book previous to the Record of Vehicle Ownership page for car-to-car contact information. Track-Date-Sanction #- Car #'s involved-Offending party/Brief Why-Penalty/or-Steward # & signature   

 

On front cover of log book add a note, "Car-To-Car contact information addendum page added to rear of log book".

 

A Chief Scrutineer dates and signs the addendum and dates and signs near the Car-To-Car contact note on front cover of log book which validates added addendum.

[Rob Burgoon]

Agreed, but you can't manage a Steward problem if you can't measure it, and measuring the points situation via technology would help. I would hope that it would also point out problem areas and problem stewards and if they don't want to do it, I would think that it would be very easy to automate an e-mail blast prior to an event to any driver who is at a certain level of points or in jeopardy of getting in more trouble.

While I agree with what I think your position is on the stewards, that is a management issue that can be remedied versus a personnel issue where they may not exist. Both in my eyes are fixable if we have data..... This can not be subjective any longer. Driver A did X at the last 3 events he/she attended. If there are stewards who are only there for the shrimp and whistle then they need to go.

Sean

Yep, automation is the key. The other thing that would do wonders for SCCA officiating is copying the NASA collision fault guide and substituting full car width instead of 3/4. The stewards would make better calls if they had guidelines to work from, beyond "ya'll leave room" and "passing car probably at fault".

[Brian Tone]

That one is above my knowledge level, but I am told that Motorsports Reg already has something in place that could be implemented in a very short period of time.   I think $$$$ and control are the issues, not the solution but I only know what I hear and have no first hand knowledge of the situation.

WRL implemented a rule issuing a unique bar code to each driver that runs with them. If there is a car to car contact called in by the corner workers or another driver that drivers involved in the contact get their barcode scanned and it's uploaded to a national database which tracks incidents. They do the same for other instances as well. As long as the officials have a smartphone with the app they've created it works fine. They hold cars in question on pit road before they're allowed to go to the paddock to ensure that there is no driver/helmet swapping.
 
 

Yep, automation is the key.  The other thing that would do wonders for SCCA officiating is copying the NASA collision fault guide and substituting 3/4 for full car width.  The stewards would make better calls if they had guidelines to work from, beyond "ya'll leave room" and "passing car probably at fault".

In FL and the SE regions of NASA they'v adopted the 1 car width rule for SM already. I can see it changing for other regions as well.

[TButler]

Cross post from another thread. Apologies for duplicate.

 

There is a “What do you think” in the July Fastrack requesting input about on track contact. It is deliberately not SM-specific. Please provide comments and input at https://www.crbscca.com/

 

Here's my 2 cents. Having corners call in contact and asking stewards to do 100% of the enforcement won’t work. Errors of judgement get made, who passed who, car colors, car numbers and things just plain get missed from corners. Ditto direct steward observations. The classic SCCA response is drivers should use the protest mechanism and SCCA relies almost entirely on the protest mechanism to provide meaningful enforcement. The problem with that is it is perceived as a big hammer, a paperwork and time nightmare for drivers and as noted some stewards dissuade the filing of paperwork. It's like "being the bad guy" to file paperwork and usually drivers have to be really pissed to go to those lengths to file protest.

 

We have to meet in the middle. I think a contact all impound and mediated discussions with stewards (or designated officials) in impound will help determine what is just a racing incident and drivers are OK to move on and what should be written up. If you have contact with another car on track, you better show up in impound after the session. I firmly believe knowing you have to face the other guy in impound and discuss what happened helps keep activity on track more civil and promote cleaner racing.  I also like Sean's idea of noting the previous incidents of contact. Having this kind of driver history was one of the key benefits of the dedicated SM class stewards in the past. While e-log books may be a ways out, (there’s that money and time thing to develop and implement) there is no reason notations of contact, incidental or otherwise can’t be entered in a log book for future review the next time contact happens.

 

If we do pass a contact all impound the next big hurdle will be publishing acceptable guidelines (specifically guidelines, not mandatory actions) on "contact". Side-by-side contact, incidental tire donut, rub rail (SRF) damage, bent fender, both drivers continue and no other competitors impacted, *and* drivers are OK and understand in impound, then no harm, no foul, racing incident.  One or both drivers can't continue, your contact results in the other guy losing positions or pushed off course, others caught up in that incident, etc, then potentially more than a racing incident and points should be assigned to one or maybe both drivers.  In any case, notations in log books to provide a tracking record for future reference.

 

For the record, I’m an active SRF/SRF3 racer. We bump draft and have our fair share of incidental and otherwise contact as well.

[TButler]

I wrote up a good number of cars a few years ago at the Daytona Double SARRC.  Most had old, multi panel body damage. Many voiced their displeasure, but I explained that they had little to loose when they hit someone who had a car that met the GCR rule. There were 2 IT7 cars that did not have one single panel or door that did not have extensive damage. IMO, those guys showed they cared nothing about others space.

 

Yes, there is room for judgement here but at what point does tech call the question? I always raced a car that had no prior damage as did most others. In the past years, I do not recall seeing one front running SM car come to the track with prior damage unless they had just raced the weekend before. And then, some efforts had been made to minimize it. Go look at an IT field at a regional some time. Scary.

 

BTW, no car should ever have a rubber tire mark on it. WD 40 removes rubber. 

 

And I believe every car that comes to the Runoffs should have all body damage fixed. This is our show case event and cars should look presentable. And I did write up two cars in prod last year at Mid Ohio for body work needed. It had to be completed within 60 days or their next event after that time.

Jim,

 

Respectfully disagree. We are not driving 100 point concours(sp?) cars here. We should be enforcing something much more reasonable like 50/50. Is the vehicle presentable from 50 feet away and 50mph?

[Jim Creighton]

Hey, you guys write the rules not me (tech). So, if you don't like the wording in the GCR concerning body damage section, then rewrite it. As a tech guy, I am bound to enforce the GCR. Change the rule!! I have no say about it.

 

And you have no idea what the cars looked like at Daytona. I had many, many drivers come over and specifically thank me for doing something about the cars I wrote up. Some where in SM but the majority were in IT.

 

 

[Rob Burgoon]

It's staggering the amount of effort people put into vanity. Imagine how much faster they would be if they put that into testing.