Jump to content

Photo

Coolshirt flow rate?

- - - - -

Best Answer Steve Scheifler , 08-06-2017 08:00 AM

Unrestricted flow rate is only half the equation, you also need sufficient pressure. Since you replaced the pump, I would look for kinks in the lines including shirt, and maybe run a mild bleach mixture through the entire system for 15min in case there is mildew or the like clogging it. Also check wiring to be certain that it is getting full voltage and can handle some current. Does the pump get hot? Go to the full post »


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1
tynor

tynor

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 47 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:Atlanta
  • Car Year:1999

At my last race, i noticed my shirt did not cool down as quickly as usual.  The pump itself seems healthy - when I disconnect from the feed, it pumps a good volume of water through its outlet.  I suspect some sort of flow related problem (in the shirt?) since the amount of water returning to the cooler is just a trickle - and I recall seeing a stronger stream when I first bought the system.

 
I measure approx 250 ml/minute (~3.3 gallons/hour) flow rate coming back from the shirt.  I bought a replacement pump (a 360gph Rule bilge pump - exact replacement) and see no difference in flow rate.
 
I had never actually measured the flow rate when working normally.  Can anyone advise what a normal amount of flow coming back into the cooler?   Advice about other troubleshooting I can do?
 
 
 

Steve Tynor

'99 SM

Atlanta, GA

 

Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#2
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,344 posts
  • Location:St. Louis
✓  Best Answer
Unrestricted flow rate is only half the equation, you also need sufficient pressure. Since you replaced the pump, I would look for kinks in the lines including shirt, and maybe run a mild bleach mixture through the entire system for 15min in case there is mildew or the like clogging it. Also check wiring to be certain that it is getting full voltage and can handle some current. Does the pump get hot?
  • tynor likes this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#3
callumhay

callumhay

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 76 posts
  • Location:tampa
  • Region:fl
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:35
If you have not done so already, check the o rings and plastic connections for fit/tightness. These are wear areas especially if you disconnect frequently.
  • tynor likes this

#4
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,571 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

After a couple tough lessons, I now plug in cool shirt, flip the cooler switch on before strapping in. Those couple lessons were called a kink/sharp bend in the shirt tube and minimal flow equals minimal cooling. Make sure the shirt tube doesn't have a permanent kink in the tube. 


  • tynor likes this
Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#5
tynor

tynor

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 47 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:Atlanta
  • Car Year:1999

Thanks for the ideas.   I've run some bleach through the system and inspected for obvious kinks/bends in the shirt and hoses.  Nothing obvious...

 

O-rings look fine.  Connections are tight.  No leaks.

 

It might well be that this flow rate is "normal" - and the lack of cooling i thought I detected was just subjective.   I've sent a query to coolshirt support to see if they can give me an expected flow rate for a properly functioning pump and shirt...


Steve Tynor

'99 SM

Atlanta, GA

 

Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#6
tynor

tynor

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 47 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:Atlanta
  • Car Year:1999

Actually -- I believe the bleach flush did the trick.  I remeasured flow rate after a 15 minute flush and letting the bleach sit in the hose/shirt for a few hours.   Much improved flow!   I now see about 11 gal/hour -- a 3x improvement.

 

Thanks Steve Scheifler for the idea.  I think I need to make this part of my normal routine -- a bleach flush is not just an off-season checklist item - I'll be doing it more frequently.

 

For posterity, I took a video to show what 11 gal/hour looks like at the return hose:

 


Steve Tynor

'99 SM

Atlanta, GA

 

Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#7
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 5,263 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

Mine's home made and I have the pump from Walmart so it may not be the case.

 

If I drain too much water out, I have to turn/rotate the pump sideways a bit it get it primed or de-buggered but my intake is on the bottom.

You hear it when it starts to work well.

 

J~


2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#8
tynor

tynor

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 47 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Region:Atlanta
  • Car Year:1999

Coolshirt.com support confirmed that 11 gph is "normal" flow rate in case anyone hits this thread with similar problems.


Steve Tynor

'99 SM

Atlanta, GA

 

Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#9
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 5,263 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

https://www.walmart....-12VDC/11071178

 

J~


2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#10
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 5,263 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

 

Sorry, a bit to much, how about this one.

 

Still way more

https://www.walmart....V2WFcQAb8aL_8ew


2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#11
SaulSpeedwell

SaulSpeedwell

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 699 posts
  • Location:NEOhio

WHERE DOES IT SAY IN THE GCR THAT YOU CAN BLUEPRINT YOUR COOL-SUIT?!?!?! 

 

-Ghost of Jim Boemler


For faster reply than PM:  miataboxes>>>AT<<<gmail>>DOT<<<com


#12
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,344 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

Sorry, a bit to much, how about this one.

Still way more
https://www.walmart....V2WFcQAb8aL_8ew

Why do you want more? The common ones seem to do quite well. Even if a litte more might be good you don't need *that* much. Too much more may not work as well and may also be too much pressure for lines and fittings. Just pumping it that much faster alone will add heat to it. You want the water to flow at a rate (speed actually) that allows heat to trasfer to it but not so slowly that it's warm before exiting the shirt. A bit like correctly matching a radiator and water pump to an engine, bigger tubes and higher volume pump aren't necessarily better.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#13
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 5,263 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88

Why do you want more? The common ones seem to do quite well. Even a litte more might be good you don't need that much. Too much more may not work as well and may also be too much pressure for lines and fittings. Just pumping it that much faster alone will add hest to it. You want the water to flow at a rate (speed actually) that allows heat to trasfer to it but not so slowly that it's warm before exiting the shirt. A bit like correctly matching a radiator and water pump to an engine, bigger tubes and higher volume pump aren't necessarily better.


I just built it to the diy BOM, beside the prime from time to time it works great for years.

Why don't you want more? Is his ^ 11 GPH really working or he's just having a issue?
2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#14
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,344 posts
  • Location:St. Louis
Sorry for the typos. Left out "if" when saying even if a little more might be good.. Point being if 11 gph is close then you probably don't want hundreds. A lot of systems out there running from ne on pumps like his, though I admit it is a bit lower that I'd guessed from draining ours. I also typed hest rather than heat. That unnecessary work and energy use is itself adding heat to the water. I don't think it makes sense to increase flow by orders of magnitude just because you can.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#15
Danny Steyn

Danny Steyn

    Zulu rain warrior

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,168 posts
  • Location:Fort Lauderdale
  • Region:FL
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:39
I have played with higher flow rate pumps in the hope I would increase the cooling.

Well it works for about 30 seconds, and then it really cools you down as you sit in several gallons of ice cold wafter freezing your nuts off when the glued joints if your coolshirt fail.

Trust me on this, 11 gallons per minute is near the upper limit on the current coolshirts, or the back pressure will cause the joints to fail.

Danny
Danny Steyn Racing | DSR YouTube Channel
Danny Steyn Photography | Adept Studios | OPM AutosportsRossini Racing Engines | G-Loc | Traqmate | Traqgear

2016 June Sprints WInner, ARRC Winner, NASA Eastern States Championships Podium

2015 Eastern Conference Majors Champ, June Sprints Winner, ARRC Winner

2014 NASA Eastern States Championship Runner Up.

2013 SEDiv Driver of the Year, Eastern Conference Majors Champ, SEDiv National Champ, ARRC Winner, Runoffs Podium

2011 SEDiv Driver of the Year, SEDiv National Champ, ARRC Winner, Palm Tree Quad National Champ, SEDiv ECR Champ
2010 June Sprints Winner, ARRC Winner

2009 SARRC Champ, SEDiv ECR Champ, FES Champ
2008 SEDiv ECR Champ

June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Majors Winner - BFG Supertour Winner -

#16
SaulSpeedwell

SaulSpeedwell

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 699 posts
  • Location:NEOhio

Why do you want more? The common ones seem to do quite well. Even if a litte more might be good you don't need *that* much. Too much more may not work as well and may also be too much pressure for lines and fittings. Just pumping it that much faster alone will add heat to it. You want the water to flow at a rate (speed actually) that allows heat to trasfer to it but not so slowly that it's warm before exiting the shirt. A bit like correctly matching a radiator and water pump to an engine, bigger tubes and higher volume pump aren't necessarily better.

Right.  That is why boiler systems flow at a prescribed rate that isn't particularly speedy, and why our Miatas run coolest with a "restrictor plate" (i.e. gutted thermostat) versus no thermostat.  

 

With air cooling, more airspeed is almost always better - although sometimes unintended consequences result.  "According to sources inside the administration", a well-known kidnapper van design from the 1990s was found to reach a stagnant equilibrium of approximately zero airflow in the engine bay when driven at highway speeds.  After the styling department got done with the front end refresh, it turns out the grill opening was too LARGE for the ability of the engine bay/bellypan to evacuate the incoming pressure.  With zero pressure on either side of the radiator, zero air flow was taking place.  The solution was ... SURPRISE! ... a smaller grill opening.   Higher pressure in front of the radiator resulted in more flow THROUGH the radiator towards the low pressure area left over by the bellypan outlet area, and thus people could be more reliably kidnapped over long distances in hot weather, just like before the styling department went TIHSEPA. 

 

But with liquid-liquid heat exchangers (oil coolers ... outboard boat motors that cool from lake/Ocean water .... and, well, Cool-Suits, sort of?), the rate of flow has to be balanced correctly.  If nothing else, you don't want cavitation that results in transferring heat with the efficiency of air instead of the efficiency of water.  If you feel like demonstrating this to yourself, put one hand in 212F air and the other hand in 212F water.  Report back with a YouTube vid :D


For faster reply than PM:  miataboxes>>>AT<<<gmail>>DOT<<<com


#17
SaulSpeedwell

SaulSpeedwell

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 699 posts
  • Location:NEOhio

I have played with higher flow rate pumps in the hope I would increase the cooling.

Well it works for about 30 seconds, and then it really cools you down as you sit in several gallons of ice cold wafter freezing your nuts off when the glued joints if your coolshirt fail.

Trust me on this, 11 gallons per minute is near the upper limit on the current coolshirts, or the back pressure will cause the joints to fail.

 

I've honestly wondered if a direct liquid drip ice water system would be superior to the closed "conduction"-based Cool-Suit.  Drip ice cold water into your suit (and into your gullet) at the rate you prefer?  Our former friend and foe, Harry Manning (RIP), was a proponent of using recyclable ice packs in his suit to help him stay cool.  I wasn't that keen on having frozen bricks strapped into my personal crumple zone. 


For faster reply than PM:  miataboxes>>>AT<<<gmail>>DOT<<<com


#18
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 5,263 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88
So I'm sure the guy building his own was like "oh cool a 12v pump at Walmart for $15 bucks.

Interesting, I could do a pot and turn it way down and flow meter for the sweet spot.
The pump has a 3/4 outlet that's reduced to the tube size. Not pressized so the GPH may drop.
I haven't had any cool shirt joint popping/breakage. The quick disconnects I'm sure are rated much higher, the tube itself is rated way up there.

I'm pretty sure if you drop the water it will warm and you'll be hot. Need the flow into contact and out.

As for air I've always wondered if you could do a "swamp cooler" in you're ice chest with a drip screen system,
2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#19
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,344 posts
  • Location:St. Louis
Prior to this recent return we had never used cool suits. Tom used the ice pack vest a few times which seemed much better than nothing but a bit of a hassle. When was really hot I simply soaked the front and arms of my suit from the cooler then dunked my balaclava just before putting it on. It was effective enough for our relatively short sessions and was especially helpful if we were delayed on grid when a prod car oiled the track or spec wreckers had to be dragged in. Of course with the evaporative approach you need to account for an extra few pounds lost, but better from your suit than your body.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#20
luvin_the_rings

luvin_the_rings

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 128 posts
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA
  • Car Year:1990

is it the common house detergents or the water that damages the Nomex's ability to keep from igniting?






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users