67 replies to this topic

[Danica Davison]

I think you may be off in your target demographic.  A $30k car all in for an entry level race car is steep.  Combine that with a target toward a younger age demo and it's going to be more difficult to draft racers.  A lot of the track day drivers put the money into the car because it's a DD and they can use it off the track.  It's quite another when at anytime on the track it could be sent to the scrap pile.  
 
The reason club sports car racers are by and large older, white men is because that is who is interested and has the means.  These days many if not most of the younger folks either don't have the funds or aren't interested.  Or both.  The people you have talked to in the Bay Area are likely the exception and not the rule.

 

These are both 100% accurate, in my opinion. As one of the dreaded millennial, the idea sounds cool, but not many younger people will buy, especially not entry level. When my age group thinks entry level, they think a cheap Honda civic, spec miata, chump car, etc. One that they know how to work on, that has a lot of readily available parts, and that they can either drive to the track for an HPDE, or that they can put on a cheap open trailer they rented from Uhaul and tow it with their Durango.  

 

Also, I am not trying to be a jerk and kill the idea ... because I think it is cool, and I wish you the best of luck Greg.  But I would like to add that if your demographic is entry level ... your biggest hurdle (besides the cost) will be educating to people what it is.  I am not sure how it is in California, but most kids my age are too busy slamming cars to the ground and putting large stickers in on their windshields saying which camber gang they are in. And then you talk about track days to them or racing ... and they either have no idea what it is, or they can't afford it.

 

I am very interested to see where it goes though!  Good luck!

[Johnny D]

I'm with Stevens...Get your target market/concept straight. It's just a fishing trip for you right now.

 

"Who you think will buy my car?" What car, you have a concept ?

 

You're not even willing to spend anything "I'm not actually trying to make money off this or risk any money in a business venture"

 

"I just want to get more people racing", I have a survey, 47% said money... Well you didn't ask them if they had $30K would they drop it on your car, right ?? And here we are.

Car and trailer and spares $9500, how you going to beat this. https://sacramento.c...6293040989.html

 

Stop talking entry level and Runoffs, they're 2 different things.

 

"If USLCI can sell 5,500 Legends race cars that look like 1930's sedans, imagine how many you could sell if they actually looked good!" 

Why don't you do this, put lip stick on a pig ?? Do a body kit out of fiberglass if you really think it makes a difference. A first gen SRF with Stohr body kit ??

 

"I will either buy the first kit from Jay or take an obsolete first-gen Stohr sports racer (can be had for about $20k) and put on 13x6 wheels, remove all downforce, change the springs and shocks, and insert restrictors in the engine (or maybe just set the revlimit in the ECU), and demonstrate the car."  Make up your mind, and why would you take all the cool, go fast stuff off and put goofy 13" wheels on it.  If there's enough of old race cars around for cheap, seal it, spec it, throw cheap hard tires and give it shot.

 

Ride on the work of other peoples coat tails "IF" "I just want to get more people racing"

 

You're selling you Porsche crashed up like that ?

https://goo.gl/photo...MznJunUkpEwPef7

 

https://www.racingju...r-race-car.html

 

 

J~

[dstevens]

Legends (with Bandelero and Thunder Roadster) was/is an SMI project meant more to feed the circle track ladder than it is to sell cars.  It shares the same goal of getting people into racing but it's largely young kids whose parents are paying for it.  When I was running Nascar All American we ran with the INEX series and while it was pretty well subscribed the hobby stock class was as large or larger than any of the single INEX classes.

 

I think cheap, plentiful production cars with sealed engines, hard tires and tight rules is a cost effective way to go.  Circle track has a class called mini stock that's similar as are the hobby stock classes.  Or an older tube frame formula car with a body, bike engine, hard tires and very limited rules.

 

Getting the tuner car kids into wheel to wheel racing is a laudable cause.  I think you'll find many of us old farts esteemed peers of a certain age here would volunteer resources and time to make that happen.  So far the goal has been elusive but that doesn't mean it's a lost cause.

 

I think if someone could vouch for Greg and get him a PRI pass this year he could learn some more about the fundamentals of the business of racing.  It's a good idea, it just needs to be fleshed out some more.   Think NASA mixed with costs and basics of Chump/LeMons without the silliness of some of the rules but the fun of participating and outreach to the tuner car kids and it's worth a shot.  Getting the next gen into racing is an issue for the sport as a whole.  With the right ideas and program some funding from within the industry might be possible.

[Bench Racer]

  A completely spec'd car, with one builder, and sealed engine, and one source of parts--the SCCA, who jacks up prices through the roof.  

Really, care to share these numbers. What Enterprises buys for and what Enterprises sells to customer for.

[Johnny D]

Really, care to share these numbers. What Enterprises buys for and what Enterprises sells to customer for.

 

SSM (sealed) is doing well in SFR. DC too correct ?

 

Is SRF sealed ?

An older/oldest car version of a popular class with sealed engine seems to work. (Money of course always screws this up)

 

Track Night is supposed to funnel, correct? How that going?

https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/

 

J~

[Greg Holmberg]

Really, care to share these numbers. What Enterprises buys for and what Enterprises sells to customer for.

 

Well, as I'm sure you know, SCCA Enterprises doesn't reveal what it pays for its parts.  It's a for-profit entity that is owned by the club, but it doesn't reveal its financials to the members.  That's a problem right there.

 

Fortunately, knowing what it pays for parts is not the only way to tell that its prices are too high.  Here are some posts from FE owners about parts costs.

 

http://www.apexspeed...ight=price list

http://www.apexspeed...ll=1#post494434

http://www.apexspeed...ll=1#post156198

http://www.apexspeed...ull=1#post81035

http://www.apexspeed...ull=1#post73878

 

Now, some of these are quite old, and Enterprises has said in the past that they are working on improving the prices.  Maybe you have more current information on FE parts than I have?  I haven't seen anyone post that FE parts prices are now reasonable.

 

If only Enterprises published a parts list with prices, then each of us could could judge for ourselves if the parts prices are reasonable.  Apparently the price list is secret.  It's certainly not available on their website.

 

However, fundamentally, Enterprises is a for-profit company with a monopoly on the market for FE parts.  That's not a recipe for low prices.

 

I see the PSL class operating more like FV.  Some spec parts, but competition between suppliers of those parts. And competition between chassis builders.  That's how you keep prices down.

[Bench Racer]

Greg, with the info you posted you haven't posted squat in terms of cost of over priced repair parts. Just a lot mumble from various sources comparing repair parts cost to a FC or SRF car. I get the feeling the monopoly thing is under your skin and encouraging your repair parts cost rage. Do you have a clue what the FE parts inspection costs would be if parts could be bought from every Tom, Dick and Harry?  

 

I know past Enterprises president Erik Skirmants very well and for a long time. He has moved on to a run a Pro series organization. Why don't you contact Erik and talk repair parts cost. 

[dstevens]

However, fundamentally, Enterprises is a for-profit company with a monopoly on the market for FE parts.  That's not a recipe for low prices.

 

I see the PSL class operating more like FV.  Some spec parts, but competition between suppliers of those parts. And competition between chassis builders.  That's how you keep prices down.

 

How you keep pricing competitive is volume.  The number of those vehicles are relatively low and that's what leads to high margin parts.  There isn't enough scale to lead to competition.   There won't be the market to sustain multiple vendors when a new car/class is added.  Getting to scale is going to require investments from those building the parts.  With a few vendors hand making chassis on a single order basis you aren't going to be able to produce large numbers of cars in a short time.  SMI is able to do it because they have the backing to fund the production of the cars and wait until they're sold.

 

The drawback of a single sourced spec parts are high prices and limited availability.   That's not a function of those vendors trying to screw the racers on prices but rather a function of how a market works in a low demand business.  In manufacturing the costs start to scale when you start doing runs of 10,000 with largely automated processes.  The volume isn't anywhere near that for hobby race cars with specific, custom, mandated parts.  That's why some of the most successful classes are based on production cars.  

 

Making a chassis from scratch is a big endeavor even if you have the knowledge and experience.  With a relatively low volume the higher margins are a direct reflection of costs of tooling and producing the parts to be able to sustain the business over the long haul.  Much of what you are paying for isn't a markup on the line items in the BOM.  There are knowledge and development costs as well as the costs of running the business.  That knowledge and experience costs money which is added to the price.