Jump to content

Photo

Rear upper control arms- Camber discussion

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
140 replies to this topic

#41
Ron Alan

Ron Alan

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,254 posts
  • Location:Northern CA
  • Region:West Coast
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:40

Wow...didnt expect that answer Jim! My guess is for the average SM driver 4 degrees is way to much but maybe at the front the skill level can push the car hard enough to take advantage of this! But as you mention this may be very track dependent!

 

So the next question...is 4 degrees being achieved with no mods? :)


Ron

RAmotorsports

2014 NASA SM Western States Champion(Car owner)

2015 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2016 NASA 25HR E3 Champion(Car owner)

2017 NASA NORCAL SM Series Director

Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#42
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 5,409 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:2

 

So the next question...is 4 degrees being achieved with no mods? :)

 If running on the stops yes

 if running a "normal" ride height I would say no.


East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#43
Danica Davison

Danica Davison

    Always the bridesmaid never the bride

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 893 posts
  • Location:Jacksonville Biatch
  • Region:Central Florida
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:10

I don't run SM anymore, but the SRF forum has a total of 8 forum posts after 150+ total SRF/SRF3 runoffs entries, which all say "Congrats Tray". 

 

Yeah but that is boring! SRF is just full of a bunch of old guys that don't know how to use a forum :P 

 

I am sure there was/is plenty of smack talk going on through snail mail


  • powerss and Dan Tiley like this

John Davison
Autotechnik Racing / 5x Racing
2016 - Central Florida Region Champion
2017 - The People's Champion
2017 - President of DSFC
#itcouldbeyou

Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Chatterbox - Blah blah blah... Blah blah blah Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#44
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

Yeah but that is boring! SRF is just full of a bunch of old guys that don't know how to use a forum :P

 

I am sure there was/is plenty o

 

:crackup: :D

 

I haven't looked but I'm guessing that the general amount of activity over there is a fraction of here as well.  And besides, being much closer to a true spec class I wouldn't expect much debate.  Look at other classes with no pretense of being spec and their forums are mostly silent.  The semi-spec and not-quite single car nature of this class guarantees active forums. I don't think that reflects badly on us.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#45
Danica Davison

Danica Davison

    Always the bridesmaid never the bride

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 893 posts
  • Location:Jacksonville Biatch
  • Region:Central Florida
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:10

:crackup: :D
 
I haven't looked but I'm guessing that the general amount of activity over there is a fraction of here as well.  And besides, being much closer to a true spec class I wouldn't expect much debate.  Look at other classes with no pretense of being spec and their forums are mostly silent.  The semi-spec and not-quite single car nature of this class guarantees active forums. I don't think that reflects badly on us.

 

You should go read the roadraceautox.com forum for some good reading! They are BRUTAL! And they hate us miata drivers :)


John Davison
Autotechnik Racing / 5x Racing
2016 - Central Florida Region Champion
2017 - The People's Champion
2017 - President of DSFC
#itcouldbeyou

Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Chatterbox - Blah blah blah... Blah blah blah Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#46
Bench Racer

Bench Racer

    Different strokes for different folks : )

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,620 posts
  • Location:Wauwatosa, WI
  • Region:Milwaukee
  • Car Year:1990
  • Car Number:14

 If running on the stops yes

No intent to draw you into something you don't care to answer. "Running on bump stops", static for setup, zero bump stop clearance. How many pointy end folks have quick enough hands to react to this after the first 3/4 inch compression?


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#47
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 5,409 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:2

No intent to draw you into something you don't care to answer. "Running on bump stops", static for setup, zero bump stop clearance. How many pointy end folks have quick enough hands to react to this after the first 3/4 inch compression?

There are a lot of kids in our class now.. All of them and many of the other top drivers. Not my preference at all. 


  • Steve Scheifler likes this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#48
FTodaro

FTodaro

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,742 posts
  • Location:Columbus Ohio
  • Region:Great Lakes
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:35

I did an alignment on my VVT last night -3.6 in the rears, and it was low but not on the stops.  Who here can feel the difference between 3.6 and 4.

 

To satisfy Novak, i will support the majority vote of the group. Part of my negativity is i hate seeing a rule change proposal on the heals of a violation. I still question the need to run the big camber in the rear, my guess is i do not have the talent to take advantage of it.

 

I understand the concern that those who may be getting 3.1 and want 3.5 and don't want to swap out sub frames. I guess we just have to decide as a class what way we want to go.

 

I sure as hell would not support any type of rule that has a pre-set camber or RH limit in tech that is just asking for trouble. The set up and camber on your car is only an advantage if it complements your driving style.


Frank
TnT Racing
SCCA Ohio Valley Region
Chairman, SCCA Great Lakes Divisional Series Committee.

Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Donor - Made PayPal donation

#49
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

Harry Manning would love competing in these cars. He rode the bumpstops when we used the stock bricks. RIP Harry.
  • FTodaro and Tom Sager like this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#50
Dan Tiley

Dan Tiley

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts
  • Location:Mooresville, NC
  • Region:SEDIV
  • Car Number:33

Yeah but that is boring! SRF is just full of a bunch of old guys that don't know how to use a forum :P

 

I am sure there was/is plenty of smack talk going on through snail mail

 

Hey... as I've recently progressed past the point of being able to pull out the 1 or 2 stray greys from my beard, I think I may resemble that remark!  I actually have a real doozy for Todd Lamb, but I can't find any stamps.


  • Todd Lamb, Jim Drago, JRHille and 1 other like this

#51
Michael Novak

Michael Novak

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 426 posts
  • Location:Highland
  • Region:Michigan
  • Car Year:2002
  • Car Number:#9

Hey... as I've recently progressed past the point of being able to pull out the 1 or 2 stray greys from my beard, I think I may resemble that remark!  I actually have a real doozy for Todd Lamb, but I can't find any stamps.


2014 Great Lakes Division SM Champion

2014 Northern Conference SM first loser....

2013 Great Lakes Division National SM Champion

2013 Northern Conference SM Co-Champion

Majors Winner - Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#52
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,278 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

There are a lot of kids in our class now.. All of them and many of the other top drivers. Not my preference at all. 

So zero travel and 16PSI hot in the tires like a kart? 


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#53
Dan Tiley

Dan Tiley

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts
  • Location:Mooresville, NC
  • Region:SEDIV
  • Car Number:33

So zero travel and 16PSI hot in the tires like a kart? 

 

Yes, but that still doesn't put a 12 year old with no sense of mortality in the seat...


  • Jim Drago and Tom Sager like this

#54
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,278 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

Hi Tom :)

 

Who says 60 cars will be checked at each event?  I've barely followed SM this year, but my understanding is the extent of the camber checks in 2017 was limited to rear control arms being removed at 2 events (COTA & Indy) on 3 cars.  I'm suggesting the top 3 and possibly a random are checked at each event.  It's quick, non-destructive and eliminates the need for custom parts updates from today's package.

 

As for unlevel ground playing a part...  just based on the math (assuming scales 66 in apart) one scale would have to be a full inch higher or lower than the other to create a 1/4° error.  I suppose that's possible, but rolling a failed car back over the scales from the other direction would eliminate that error.  Yes, that same 1" of unlevel would totally screw up the cross reading, but they're only concerned with total anyway.

 

And finally, regarding people chasing gauge variability at each event to get that last tenth degree of camber....  the returns on that investment of time are negligible.  A big part of my job is studying NASCAR tire test fits, and based on that, and scaling for SM loading conditions, it'd be safe to say that 0.25° of camber is worth about 0.2% or less normalized lateral grip (Fy/Fz).  I'd rather spend my time perusing the lunch offerings at the OPM tent.  

 

In addition to the variations of the measuring platform and gauges in the Neon days there were lots of debates about slightly bent wheels, damaged wheels lips or camber that changed during the race or session due to off track excursions.   We mostly liked the rule for reasons or parity but the application of the rule didn't work and I can remember events where this very issue was the biggest challenge of the weekend.

 

I like a max camber rule now if there was an easy and reliable way to apply it. 


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#55
Caveman-kwebb99

Caveman-kwebb99

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,810 posts
  • Location:World Wide
  • Region:Great lakes
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:99
It's like gin control because some idiot killed someone... No camber rule is needed what is needed is following the rules as written!
  • David L likes this

K. Webb
Powered by East Street Racing (Best engines in Spec Miata)

Driver coach, Spec Miata Prep shop, Spec Miata Setup

2016 Hard Charger award passing 12 cars runoffs 2016 Mid Ohio

2016 P3 RUNOFFS OVER 40 DIVISION LOL!

2015 First consolation prize Northern Conference Majors Title Pageant
2015 Winner Circus Cat Majors Road America

2015 Winner BlackHawk Majors crash fest

My Signature is still not as long as Danny boy's
 

 

 

Donor - Made PayPal donation Majors Winner - Chatterbox - Blah blah blah... Blah blah blah Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#56
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,418 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

It's like gin control...


I’m no expert but I think prohibition ended awhile ago.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#57
Caveman-kwebb99

Caveman-kwebb99

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,810 posts
  • Location:World Wide
  • Region:Great lakes
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:99

I’m no expert but I think prohibition ended awhile ago.


What so you know your a hayseed from farm land lol

K. Webb
Powered by East Street Racing (Best engines in Spec Miata)

Driver coach, Spec Miata Prep shop, Spec Miata Setup

2016 Hard Charger award passing 12 cars runoffs 2016 Mid Ohio

2016 P3 RUNOFFS OVER 40 DIVISION LOL!

2015 First consolation prize Northern Conference Majors Title Pageant
2015 Winner Circus Cat Majors Road America

2015 Winner BlackHawk Majors crash fest

My Signature is still not as long as Danny boy's
 

 

 

Donor - Made PayPal donation Majors Winner - Chatterbox - Blah blah blah... Blah blah blah Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#58
Todd Lamb

Todd Lamb

    Driver Coach // Racer

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 933 posts
  • Location:Atlanta, GA
PS - congrats to Tray (he's my coaching client, and this is my shameless plug).

Max camber rule isn't going to happen, but open to other ideas.

Pass the gin.
  • Tom Sager likes this

Full disclosure: SMAC chairman, my opinions do not reflect anything to do with the SMAC unless specifically stated.

Todd Lamb
Atlanta Speedwerks
www.atlspeedwerks.com
SpeedShift Transmissions - reliability and performance

Spec Miata / Spec Boxster / Spec Cayman specialist

Global MX-5 Cup team

 

2017 - Advanced group. I drive flat out, why are there Miatas passing me?

2016 - Moved up to intermediate run group and got race slicks

2015 - First place in novice DE group

2014 - Born

MX5 Cup Champion - Has won a Season in the MX5 Cup Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Majors Winner - World Challenge Winner - World Challenge Winner

#59
SaulSpeedwell

SaulSpeedwell

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 706 posts
  • Location:NEOhio

No dog in the hunt per se and I am not excusing any noncompliance issues at the Runoffs.  I suffered through the early years of the 2.0/2.5 max camber rule, as well as the "as much camber as you can get legally" years where various camber-improving methods (bent control arms, subframes with relocated pockets, shortened upper control arms) were being ignored, or were unknown to most, or were not being enforced.  A LOT of people, including some rulemakers of the time and MazdaSpeed itself, were telling unsuspecting folks that if they bought all new front end parts they could happily get all the camber they wanted.  It simply wasn't true. A lot of people wasted $1300 for no reason.

I think I proposed the offset bushings that are now legal in the front about 8-10 years before they actually became legal.  ​Camber isn't like horsepower, there is a law of diminishing returns.  Apparently Der Continental SM7s like more camber than everyone can achieve cheaply, easily, legally.

​I am in favor of giving everyone as much camber as they want, as cheaply and easily as they can achieve it.  If new/correct parts truly fixes everyone's problem, fine.  


  • Ron Alan, Richard Astacio and ccambern like this

For faster reply than PM:  miataboxes>>>AT<<<gmail>>DOT<<<com


#60
Michael Novak

Michael Novak

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 426 posts
  • Location:Highland
  • Region:Michigan
  • Car Year:2002
  • Car Number:#9

One VOTE for rear camber bushings or rear control arm mod.

 

1. I have changed three rear subframes over the years. One from an accident and two because we could get the numbers we were looking for. A hard bump just right can leave you with a slightly bent(SAFE) rear subframe that will no longer get even -3.0 of camber. It is stupid to have to change it out. 

 

2. The class has evolved over time and if it stops--it will die... Changes like these that cost nothing or very little and are definitely within the spirit of the class. It saves money in many cases. 

 

3. The mold was broken when the bushings were allowed in the front. DO NOT add a camber rule... let tech worry about bigger things.


  • Ron Alan, Steve Scheifler and ccambern like this

2014 Great Lakes Division SM Champion

2014 Northern Conference SM first loser....

2013 Great Lakes Division National SM Champion

2013 Northern Conference SM Co-Champion

Majors Winner - Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users