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Rear upper control arms- Camber discussion

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#41
Ron Alan

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Wow...didnt expect that answer Jim! My guess is for the average SM driver 4 degrees is way to much but maybe at the front the skill level can push the car hard enough to take advantage of this! But as you mention this may be very track dependent!

 

So the next question...is 4 degrees being achieved with no mods? :)


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#42
Jim Drago

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So the next question...is 4 degrees being achieved with no mods? :)

 If running on the stops yes

 if running a "normal" ride height I would say no.


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#43
Danica Davison

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I don't run SM anymore, but the SRF forum has a total of 8 forum posts after 150+ total SRF/SRF3 runoffs entries, which all say "Congrats Tray". 

 

Yeah but that is boring! SRF is just full of a bunch of old guys that don't know how to use a forum :P 

 

I am sure there was/is plenty of smack talk going on through snail mail


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#44
Steve Scheifler

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Yeah but that is boring! SRF is just full of a bunch of old guys that don't know how to use a forum :P

 

I am sure there was/is plenty o

 

:crackup: :D

 

I haven't looked but I'm guessing that the general amount of activity over there is a fraction of here as well.  And besides, being much closer to a true spec class I wouldn't expect much debate.  Look at other classes with no pretense of being spec and their forums are mostly silent.  The semi-spec and not-quite single car nature of this class guarantees active forums. I don't think that reflects badly on us.


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#45
Danica Davison

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:crackup: :D
 
I haven't looked but I'm guessing that the general amount of activity over there is a fraction of here as well.  And besides, being much closer to a true spec class I wouldn't expect much debate.  Look at other classes with no pretense of being spec and their forums are mostly silent.  The semi-spec and not-quite single car nature of this class guarantees active forums. I don't think that reflects badly on us.

 

You should go read the roadraceautox.com forum for some good reading! They are BRUTAL! And they hate us miata drivers :)


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#46
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 If running on the stops yes

No intent to draw you into something you don't care to answer. "Running on bump stops", static for setup, zero bump stop clearance. How many pointy end folks have quick enough hands to react to this after the first 3/4 inch compression?


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#47
Jim Drago

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No intent to draw you into something you don't care to answer. "Running on bump stops", static for setup, zero bump stop clearance. How many pointy end folks have quick enough hands to react to this after the first 3/4 inch compression?

There are a lot of kids in our class now.. All of them and many of the other top drivers. Not my preference at all. 


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#48
FTodaro

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I did an alignment on my VVT last night -3.6 in the rears, and it was low but not on the stops.  Who here can feel the difference between 3.6 and 4.

 

To satisfy Novak, i will support the majority vote of the group. Part of my negativity is i hate seeing a rule change proposal on the heals of a violation. I still question the need to run the big camber in the rear, my guess is i do not have the talent to take advantage of it.

 

I understand the concern that those who may be getting 3.1 and want 3.5 and don't want to swap out sub frames. I guess we just have to decide as a class what way we want to go.

 

I sure as hell would not support any type of rule that has a pre-set camber or RH limit in tech that is just asking for trouble. The set up and camber on your car is only an advantage if it complements your driving style.


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#49
Steve Scheifler

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Harry Manning would love competing in these cars. He rode the bumpstops when we used the stock bricks. RIP Harry.
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#50
Dan Tiley

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Yeah but that is boring! SRF is just full of a bunch of old guys that don't know how to use a forum :P

 

I am sure there was/is plenty of smack talk going on through snail mail

 

Hey... as I've recently progressed past the point of being able to pull out the 1 or 2 stray greys from my beard, I think I may resemble that remark!  I actually have a real doozy for Todd Lamb, but I can't find any stamps.


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#51
Michael Novak

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Hey... as I've recently progressed past the point of being able to pull out the 1 or 2 stray greys from my beard, I think I may resemble that remark!  I actually have a real doozy for Todd Lamb, but I can't find any stamps.


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#52
Tom Sager

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There are a lot of kids in our class now.. All of them and many of the other top drivers. Not my preference at all. 

So zero travel and 16PSI hot in the tires like a kart? 


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#53
Dan Tiley

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So zero travel and 16PSI hot in the tires like a kart? 

 

Yes, but that still doesn't put a 12 year old with no sense of mortality in the seat...


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#54
Tom Sager

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Hi Tom :)

 

Who says 60 cars will be checked at each event?  I've barely followed SM this year, but my understanding is the extent of the camber checks in 2017 was limited to rear control arms being removed at 2 events (COTA & Indy) on 3 cars.  I'm suggesting the top 3 and possibly a random are checked at each event.  It's quick, non-destructive and eliminates the need for custom parts updates from today's package.

 

As for unlevel ground playing a part...  just based on the math (assuming scales 66 in apart) one scale would have to be a full inch higher or lower than the other to create a 1/4° error.  I suppose that's possible, but rolling a failed car back over the scales from the other direction would eliminate that error.  Yes, that same 1" of unlevel would totally screw up the cross reading, but they're only concerned with total anyway.

 

And finally, regarding people chasing gauge variability at each event to get that last tenth degree of camber....  the returns on that investment of time are negligible.  A big part of my job is studying NASCAR tire test fits, and based on that, and scaling for SM loading conditions, it'd be safe to say that 0.25° of camber is worth about 0.2% or less normalized lateral grip (Fy/Fz).  I'd rather spend my time perusing the lunch offerings at the OPM tent.  

 

In addition to the variations of the measuring platform and gauges in the Neon days there were lots of debates about slightly bent wheels, damaged wheels lips or camber that changed during the race or session due to off track excursions.   We mostly liked the rule for reasons or parity but the application of the rule didn't work and I can remember events where this very issue was the biggest challenge of the weekend.

 

I like a max camber rule now if there was an easy and reliable way to apply it. 


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#55
Caveman-kwebb99

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It's like gin control because some idiot killed someone... No camber rule is needed what is needed is following the rules as written!
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#56
Steve Scheifler

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It's like gin control...


I’m no expert but I think prohibition ended awhile ago.
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#57
Caveman-kwebb99

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I’m no expert but I think prohibition ended awhile ago.


What so you know your a hayseed from farm land lol

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#58
Todd Lamb

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Max camber rule isn't going to happen, but open to other ideas.

Pass the gin.
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#59
SaulSpeedwell

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No dog in the hunt per se and I am not excusing any noncompliance issues at the Runoffs.  I suffered through the early years of the 2.0/2.5 max camber rule, as well as the "as much camber as you can get legally" years where various camber-improving methods (bent control arms, subframes with relocated pockets, shortened upper control arms) were being ignored, or were unknown to most, or were not being enforced.  A LOT of people, including some rulemakers of the time and MazdaSpeed itself, were telling unsuspecting folks that if they bought all new front end parts they could happily get all the camber they wanted.  It simply wasn't true. A lot of people wasted $1300 for no reason.

I think I proposed the offset bushings that are now legal in the front about 8-10 years before they actually became legal.  ​Camber isn't like horsepower, there is a law of diminishing returns.  Apparently Der Continental SM7s like more camber than everyone can achieve cheaply, easily, legally.

​I am in favor of giving everyone as much camber as they want, as cheaply and easily as they can achieve it.  If new/correct parts truly fixes everyone's problem, fine.  


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#60
Michael Novak

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One VOTE for rear camber bushings or rear control arm mod.

 

1. I have changed three rear subframes over the years. One from an accident and two because we could get the numbers we were looking for. A hard bump just right can leave you with a slightly bent(SAFE) rear subframe that will no longer get even -3.0 of camber. It is stupid to have to change it out. 

 

2. The class has evolved over time and if it stops--it will die... Changes like these that cost nothing or very little and are definitely within the spirit of the class. It saves money in many cases. 

 

3. The mold was broken when the bushings were allowed in the front. DO NOT add a camber rule... let tech worry about bigger things.


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