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Worth it to Build a New 1.6 Motor?

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#21
Walter Vetter

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Ask yourself - of the teams/drivers who can afford the budget necessary to run at the front, how many are doing so with a NA 1.6?


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#22
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#23
Steve Scheifler

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Ask yourself - of the teams/drivers who can afford the budget necessary to run at the front, how many are doing so with a NA 1.6?


And when he is close enough for that to be relevant he will have gotten his $$ worth out of the 1.6 and be able to start with a fresh car of his choice, rather than wear out or crash a new one now.
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#24
1.6 Montana

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Just my 2 cents-

 

I have a 1.6 1990 and bought it 11 years ago and it has probably 18-20 races on it.  It has been an absolute blast to drive and I have loved every min of it!!

 

I only get to race on average three times a year so not tons of track time but the car has definitely not held me back-  I have never replace the bottom end and have put

 

two heads on it. Tim Fountaine  from Autoworks - in Bozeman, Mt did most of the prep on the car and I usually raced in Colorado. It has the FPR from Dave and just the proper stuff which he helped me set up before the runoffs.  

 

I had my first opportunity to really work with a team (Atlanta Speedwerks) and Todd, Brian and Jim on set up driving and overall race craft during the Runoffs this year at Indy.  Beside going

 

off the track many times during practice and totally screwing up turn 1 and taking out Justin Elder- (I continue to be sorry for this!!) and a run in with Nick Soriano(sorry man) we were able to

 

help the car and help me and I was P8 in the final practice session before qualifying. I could not seem to match the pace once the weather cooled down, but this was TOTALLY ME not the car!! 

 

 

All of this to say: Do all the stuff that is allowed for the 1.6- put a new head on it and run that thing----- it will be an absolute blast!!!!

 

Blackhawk is a gas -- hope you have an amazing time!

 

Andy



#25
Richard Astacio

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Just my 2 cents-

 

I have a 1.6 1990 and bought it 11 years ago and it has probably 18-20 races on it.  It has been an absolute blast to drive and I have loved every min of it!!

 

I only get to race on average three times a year so not tons of track time but the car has definitely not held me back-  I have never replace the bottom end and have put

 

two heads on it. Tim Fountaine  from Autoworks - in Bozeman, Mt did most of the prep on the car and I usually raced in Colorado. It has the FPR from Dave and just the proper stuff which he helped me set up before the runoffs.  

 

I had my first opportunity to really work with a team (Atlanta Speedwerks) and Todd, Brian and Jim on set up driving and overall race craft during the Runoffs this year at Indy.  Beside going

 

off the track many times during practice and totally screwing up turn 1 and taking out Justin Elder- (I continue to be sorry for this!!) and a run in with Nick Soriano(sorry man) we were able to

 

help the car and help me and I was P8 in the final practice session before qualifying. I could not seem to match the pace once the weather cooled down, but this was TOTALLY ME not the car!! 

 

 

All of this to say: Do all the stuff that is allowed for the 1.6- put a new head on it and run that thing----- it will be an absolute blast!!!!

 

Blackhawk is a gas -- hope you have an amazing time!

 

Andy

 

 

yellow Miata?


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#26
1.6 Montana

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Yep- My father ran H Production in the late 80's and had a yellow Morgan---and so when i saw this one, I had to have it--

 

Andy



#27
Pat Mcg

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CAL is dead on...

 

Proper prep on a 1.6 car can be the fastest car on the track...  My Point is..  The car is not a forgiving.  If you look at it just from time and money..  You will get more out of a 99 or newer over time than all the constant inputs and cost to keep the 1.6 at the tip of the spear..    I have competed a 1.6 this year in the Majors..  I do not have a team prepping me.  I am doing the work myself and begging for help when needed..  Paid for set up and dyno cost here and there..   Best finish on the year was 20th.  I generally finished upper mid pack.  and it still required a significant investment..  You may as well just post your bank account number on line... 

 

Don't be so quick to point at the car.  NOTHING replaces seat time.  Even finishing last is seat time.  You are running against folks in the majors that could compete in any pro series... and be very competitive.  The top 20 at the runoffs... anyone of them would smoke a regional event for the most part..

 

To be clear..  The folks running on the Hoosier Super Tour/ Majors.. They are dropping some dollars.  There are a few out there that are wrenching themselves.  Johnathan Davis is a good example..  He does really well on his own against what seems like an unlimited budget from the competition...  These are not new cars.. they have been racing for decades..  You are just starting....  The key players.. Advanced, esr, OPM, BSI, V2, and a dozen others..  They know what the hell they are doing.  And they have been doing it for years....   If you are a funded driver..  They can get you where you want to be if money is no object.  But... it will still take seat time...

 

Save some money.  Maybe do a refresh on your head, and concentrate on driving the car.  Sharpen your race-craft.  RENT a 99 or better and use that as your basis..  If you run only a half second to a second on a 99 or newer...  It's you and not the car.. 

 

Also..  You have to recognize the weakness of the 1.6 and not allow other cars take your advantages away..   like pushing you inside on a curve..  You will not win that race..

 

 

Lastly..  the 1.6 will require much more input..  The fastest laps I have ever ran in my car I would have sworn that I was about the hit the wall or loose car completely.  You really have to push that car hard and it is a bit uncomfortable at first to understand the limits..    

 

Just for the heck of it I raced an SVRA at Mid Ohio.  Qualified 4th in that race..  Like 6 cars were pretty good in a field of 22..  Same Mid Ohio Majors race the 2 weeks before.  I qualified like 30 something out of 44 cars is i remember correctly...  Just a whole different level of competition... 



#28
Steve Scheifler

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We will be testing all 3 days with various agendas.

Voytek ,yellow and black car will be testing some new brake pads
Voytek will also be comparing the VVT versus the new 1.6 we just built.
The 1.6 will be doing back to back sessions with the Torsen diff and a Mazda Comp diff.
Danny Bender will be doing some shock testing with non-SM shocks

Hope to find some interesting info.

Anyone at the track, feel free to stop by, we are easy to find.

Dave


Results so far Dave? I assume that car 16 running SMT is the new 1.6 build. Fast laps appear very close to what Voytek is doing in his own car, certainly no conspicuous edge either way. Very interested to hear his feedback and what you have learned from the other testing. It’s really great that you are doing this!
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#29
Steve Scheifler

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Just saw the weather for today. :( Perhaps more comparison testing at the Loooong race next weekend? It certainly should be cool enough for the 1.6 to be at its very best.
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#30
OrangeCrush86

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Would any SM drivers be willing to share in car video from the rain race at Blackhawk on Sunday? That was my first race in the wet on rain tires and I didn't do very well. I tried to follow some of the other guys on the rain line but was way off pace. I would like to compare my video to someone else. Thanks.


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#31
Tom Sager

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Would any SM drivers be willing to share in car video from the rain race at Blackhawk on Sunday? That was my first race in the wet on rain tires and I didn't do very well. I tried to follow some of the other guys on the rain line but was way off pace. I would like to compare my video to someone else. Thanks.

OC86, I was only there on Saturday but if you were to post your rain video on youtube and link it here you'd probably get a lot of valuable feedback. 


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#32
Steve Scheifler

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Did you have all the tires rotating the right direction? :)
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#33
Martinracing98

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Did you have all the tires rotating the right direction? :)

Steve's statement may have seemed like a joke, but a rain tire backwards will pump water towards the center of tire causing low traction. I have definitely seen some put on a car incorrectly.  



#34
Tom Sager

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Steve's statement may have seemed like a joke, but a rain tire backwards will pump water towards the center of tire causing low traction. I have definitely seen some put on a car incorrectly.  

Yes and low traction = oh shyt. 


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#35
Steve Scheifler

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You just ran Blackhawk in the rain, now imagine being on the front row of the grid there, for a Majors race, in the rain, and being told that your rear tires are on backwards. Memorable, I can assure you.
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#36
davew

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Our testing results. All this is quick and from memory. I have not looked at any data yet. Sunday was  rain all day. Sunday is simply a seat of the pants feel. Saturday should have been a great track, but everyone seemed to feel the track was about 0.5 seconds slow.

 

Saturday VVT vs 1.6. Both Advanced built cars with all the usual things we do. X-factor motor in both cars. Same driver, Voytek:

 

The VVT was also running a new brake compound. Voytek felt the brakes were too aggresive for his preference. But we kept them on the car all day for longevity testing.

The 1.6 ran with a 1.8 Torsen diff for practice and qualifying. We switched to a 1.6 Mazdacomp diff for the race

 

Seat of pants is that the 1.6 diff helps the car off the corners due to weight differences. Slightly different turn in needed to rotate the car properly. I don't have qualifying sheets, but lap time was so close that it really does not matter. Our opinion is that the popular belief that the small diff is considerably faster is  fake news. I would run the big diff for the reliability whenever possible.

 

The VVT was about 0.1 faster than the 1.6 (with small diff) in the race. Voytek felt he did not really figure out the small differences in driving style till the end of the race. Both races on the same tires, so tire wear could be another small contributing factor to the 1.6 being a tick slower.

 

Driver opinion is that the 1.6 is more fun to drive, mostly due to being 150 pounds lighter. While the VVT is easier to drive, thought to be due to the revised front suspension geometry, and the increase in torque from the motor.

 

Both races on Sunday where in the rain. Starting with a good solid rain, going to almost a dry track for the VVT race. And a solid drizzel/mist for the 1.6 race. No stop watch data is going to tell anything, due to the changing conditions. Voytek felt the 1.6 was a better car for the rain. Especially taking into account that the tires were new for the VVT race and had a full 30 minute race in drying conditions for the 1.6 race.

 

All in all the cars are very equal when prepped equally. To my knowledge this weekend is the best comparison of a 1.6 to any NB car. Equally prepped cars, same front running driver, back to back to back sessions. On a track known by the driver. Great job by the SMAC on parity.

 

Can this be the last thread on parity, it exists.

 

Dave


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#37
Steve Scheifler

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Great stuff Dave, thanks! As for that last request, it seems unlikely but this surely helps.

Another good way to look at the simple lap times would be to use the two other car-driver combinations that were reasonably close and running both classes as controls. I’ve only glanced at them so far but that angle seems to support roughly the same overall conclusion with perhaps a bit more of an edge to the VVT. We of course know less about their tires etc.

I have said here in the past that I believed the 1.6 probably has a slight edge at Blackhawk. It now looks like it might be very even or slightly behind, but certainly not an overdog that allowed us to punch way above our weight, so to speak, as others have stated. It is worth keeping in mind that it is only one track, very different than where many big races are held, and cool conditions were helpful for it to shine.
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#38
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 and cool conditions were helpful for it to shine.

Your data please.


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#39
Steve Scheifler

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You got me there Bench! Obviously I wasn’t there, but I did watch weather conditions and other than that I’m relying on the obvious laced with common assertions and my prior experience about AITs on the 1.6 now that we are allowed the turn indicator delete. Point being, IF the 1.6 benefits more from cool conditions through the course of a race than do other models, then Saturday was relatively good for the 1.6 and things may be a bit different at the July Majors at Road Atlanta.
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#40
davew

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Saturday was a beautiful day. About 70 degrees bright sunshine. the 1.6 has the turn signal removed and the crossover tube insulated


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