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#81
davew

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There will always be the haves and the have nots in this game.

 

If driver A can afford to dyno every race and a new motor every year, should less wealthy driver B be allowed a bigger plate for running a 4 year old motor.

 

If driver B does not want to spend the time and/or money on having good suspension pieces, he now gets to slot the arm. The problem is, rich driver A also gets to slot his arm. With his un damaged parts he can get 5* of camber while poor driver B still only gets 4*.

 

Do you really want driver B running around with known damaged/bent parts and a slotted control arm.

 

We already have issues with rear hub and bearing failures. What do you think will happen when we get even more camber?

 

My suspension jigs are done. They are up on my website. We made a video showing how they work yesterday. Editing should be done today or tomorrow morning. I will post the you tube link. What I have been able to prove is that there are no magic suspension parts. Just good ones and bent ones. Over the years, I have measured hundreds of control arms. I have never found one that is bent in the right direction to give an advantage. Every new unit fits the jigs. Every bent unit does not.

 

If everyone uses stock unmodified control arms, the playing field is level and fair. If you are willing to run damaged suspension parts and a band aid fix, maybe you should consider missing an event and replace some damaged parts.

 

Yes, this is a slippery slope, started with the offset front bushings. Which I was against back then also.

 

My 2 cents

Dave


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#82
Johnny D

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There will always be the haves and the have nots in this game.

 

If driver A can afford to dyno every race and a new motor every year, should less wealthy driver B be allowed a bigger plate for running a 4 year old motor.

 

If driver B does not want to spend the time and/or money on having good suspension pieces, he now gets to slot the arm. The problem is, rich driver A also gets to slot his arm. With his un damaged parts he can get 5* of camber while poor driver B still only gets 4*.

 

Do you really want driver B running around with known damaged/bent parts and a slotted control arm.

 

We already have issues with rear hub and bearing failures. What do you think will happen when we get even more camber?

 

My suspension jigs are done. They are up on my website. We made a video showing how they work yesterday. Editing should be done today or tomorrow morning. I will post the you tube link. What I have been able to prove is that there are no magic suspension parts. Just good ones and bent ones. Over the years, I have measured hundreds of control arms. I have never found one that is bent in the right direction to give an advantage. Every new unit fits the jigs. Every bent unit does not.

 

If everyone uses stock unmodified control arms, the playing field is level and fair. If you are willing to run damaged suspension parts and a band aid fix, maybe you should consider missing an event and replace some damaged parts.

 

Yes, this is a slippery slope, started with the offset front bushings. Which I was against back then also.

 

My 2 cents

Dave

 

Is there a ride height associated with getting 4* ??

 

J~


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#83
Brandon

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Incredible....just incredible...justifying a modification "in an effort to have parity" between respective car owner capabilities?

 

As others have noted, what about replacement wiring harnesses? I'm sure there's a down-on-his-luck '99 owner who's having the high RPM breakup issues who can't afford to swap-in multiple engine harnesses to fix it or doesn't have the skills to do it by themselves?

What about the poor schmuck who can't afford a $400 radiator (or multiples after rocks and debris) and would like to instead implement the $300 coolant reroute kit once?

Too bad...if you find yourself doing well and in a multi-car draft for a top-5, better hope race day isn't above 80* ambient is how I read this.

 

Whether it's skill, money, or facilities there will always be winners and losers yet at each opportunity some group decides to subvert the underlying reason for this class to exist and agrees to implement a rule change that takes it further away from that reason.

 

I'll be hanging with Frank & Dave on this one (not that I'm influential or anything) and writing a letter requesting it not be implemented.


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#84
Bench Racer

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Currently the pointy end 25% win the races and the 75% enjoy their track time. If the soft tires, offset bushings, slotted control arms didn't exist the cars wouldn't be nearly as stable and folks would need to learn how to drive. Similar 25% would win and similar 75% would enjoy their track time, BUT, a few from the 75% would trade places with a few from the 25% and that would be a FACT. PC, that's not smack, that's reality. :bigsquaregrin:


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#85
BNaumann

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So how about extended lower ball joints for the front? I can't find anything to slot. Can you use those with upper control arm bushings in NASA or is it either/or?

#86
wheel

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The slotted control arm issue has been returned to the CRB.  We will probably put out a WDYT, so that you all have some time to send in letters for or against.  We also have to contend with the NASA issue.  Are slotted control arms legal in NASA.  We try not to do too many things that make you unable to run with both sanctioning bodies.


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#87
Jim Creighton

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Sounds like a good move by the CRB. Need to write a letter one way or the other. How many cars at the Runoffs had this modification? If just a couple, why the heck is it needed? And if it's not going to be compliant for any other sanctioning body, why even go there.

 

So, maybe the real solution might be to set a maximum allowed rear camber. That would take the temptation out of tweaking things to get more rear camber. It's easy enough for tech to check. Heck, I seen several cars where the rear camber jumped out at me. With a maximum, all will be playing with the same toys. Isn't that the real object of the SM rules?

 


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#88
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wrt the slotted control arm issue, I will work with the SMAC to ensure that competitors may transition between organizations seamlessly.
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#89
BNaumann

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Sounds like a good move by the CRB. Need to write a letter one way or the other. How many cars at the Runoffs had this modification? If just a couple, why the heck is it needed? And if it's not going to be compliant for any other sanctioning body, why even go there.

 

So, maybe the real solution might be to set a maximum allowed rear camber. That would take the temptation out of tweaking things to get more rear camber. It's easy enough for tech to check. Heck, I seen several cars where the rear camber jumped out at me. With a maximum, all will be playing with the same toys. Isn't that the real object of the SM rules?

 

Only one car at Runoffs had this modification that we know of.  Would you expect more considering it was obvious and illegal? 

 

It is needed so that those of us who choose to follow the rules have the simplest, cheapest, safest option to achieve more camber.

 

I'm sure it will be compliant for "any other sanctioning body."  It is in their best interest to mirror the rules.

 

This is my last serious post on the subject.  I'm really surprised at the pushback on this one of all things.


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#90
Johnny D

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#91
EMatoy

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There will always be the haves and the have nots in this game.

 

If driver A can afford to dyno every race and a new motor every year, should less wealthy driver B be allowed a bigger plate for running a 4 year old motor.

 

If driver B does not want to spend the time and/or money on having good suspension pieces, he now gets to slot the arm. The problem is, rich driver A also gets to slot his arm. With his un damaged parts he can get 5* of camber while poor driver B still only gets 4*.

 

Do you really want driver B running around with known damaged/bent parts and a slotted control arm.

 

We already have issues with rear hub and bearing failures. What do you think will happen when we get even more camber?

 

My suspension jigs are done. They are up on my website. We made a video showing how they work yesterday. Editing should be done today or tomorrow morning. I will post the you tube link. What I have been able to prove is that there are no magic suspension parts. Just good ones and bent ones. Over the years, I have measured hundreds of control arms. I have never found one that is bent in the right direction to give an advantage. Every new unit fits the jigs. Every bent unit does not.

 

If everyone uses stock unmodified control arms, the playing field is level and fair. If you are willing to run damaged suspension parts and a band aid fix, maybe you should consider missing an event and replace some damaged parts.

 

Yes, this is a slippery slope, started with the offset front bushings. Which I was against back then also.

 

My 2 cents

Dave

What are the tolerances on the production Mazda parts?  What is the tolerance on your jigs after they are built?  How much do your jigs warp when they were welded?  If they are as accurate and repeatable as the sub frame checkers or bump stop kits from the past - then I see no use for them.  You are using something that is not precise to look for a small difference.  I am not talking about damaged parts in a wreck - I am sure you can find that.  I am talking about an assortment of "good" parts that are put on a car and do not achieve the desired results.

 

I get it you are not for a rule change.  Instead you are proposing we have to buy a $360 kit of jigs that may or may not actually tell me what parts to use.  Then I also have to buy all the parts I want to measure and very likely could end up exactly where I started.  

 

It seems that people want to ignore the fact that you can modify suspension parts (yes illegally) that can not be detected by tech.  There are no measurements published, the tolerances are not known.  That only leaves us with comparing to a new part - who has new parts in the box or bag from Mazda at the track?  Then how would one compare and actually see which one is correct?  We are talking about fractions of inches here- 0.08 inches per 1/2 degree.  A visual check of 2 subframes or knuckles won't find it.  Yes is someone was dumb enough to slot a control arm you would find it.  

 

We have a simple solution to stop the cheats - an almost free slot!  This is what my letter asked for and some of the points I made.

 

If one wants to say a slot is unsafe - please explain what holds the suspension parts in all the factory slots?  Its not the washers on the cam bolts!



#92
Tom Sager

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Maybe I'm the last to know...

 

It's my belief that since the offset bushings for the front have been approved, we now have as much front camber adjustment as we need to get the most performance out of the car.  In other words, the adjustment range in the front now exceeds the most camber anyone would run.  We can get a lot now in the front, over -4 degrees.  More than enough, right?

 

On the rear, some here have stated that they can only get -3.1 or -3.2 with straight components.  Many others can get -3.5+.  The slot as proposed adds what, a half-degree?  If approved that gets the have-nots to -3.6+  Again, more than enough, right? Or is there a belief now that those who can get -4.0+ in the rear will have an advantage over those that can "only" get -3.6? 

 

I can't image running -4+ degrees in the rear at any track and that being faster than say -3.5.  I've never had a loose car at that setting unless there was something else wrong and the more camber we add to the rear the slower we go in a straight line. 

 

The whole point of this proposed change is to make it easier to get both ends of the car to have enough adjustment to go to or slightly beyond an optimal setting taking into account some small production variances, right? 

 

If all we're doing is adding a half degree and the haves still see an advantage over the have-nots then we haven't accomplished much.  I still think the proposed change is more positive than not unless more is still better. 


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#93
EMatoy

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The change would allow about 0.2 inches. Which is about 1.25 degrees. So if you had 3.1 then you could have 4.35. i can't see anyone wanting more.

My example of adding 0.5 deg was to get from 3.1 to 3.6 and how small of a change is needed and how easy you could hide it. A little here a little there and impossible to prove.

#94
Bench Racer

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Ya know, I haven't been to nearly as many test days or races as the race shops, BUT there is one thing I'll say. Other than myself I've never viewed ANYONE recording tire temperature's. Now does someone care to tell be you can recognize camber +/- using tire pressures. Put a maximum number on negative camber just like there is a maximum track width number and call it quits. Let's stop the goofy bullshit (changing rules because of cheating).  


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#95
Caveman-kwebb99

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I think I have made up my mind to support the slotting...

I am not sure it's needed but I know there are others that are cheating in this area by welding up and redrilling the holes or bending parts that cannot be caught.

Therefore I just made up my mind that I vote to take their cheat away from them by giving everyone the ability to get the camber.

Letter being sent

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#96
BNaumann

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Now does someone care to tell be you can recognize camber +/- using tire pressures.


You need those wheels with two valve stems so you can take measurements at the top and the bottom.
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#97
Ron Alan

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I think I have made up my mind to support the slotting...

I am not sure it's needed but I know there are others that are cheating in this area by welding up and redrilling the holes or bending parts that cannot be caught.

Therefore I just made up my mind that I vote to take their cheat away from them by giving everyone the ability to get the camber.

Letter being sent

Change the word CAMBER above with the words LOWER FUEL PRESSURE. How did that work out for everyone?

 

I'll sign your petition Kyle! :)


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#98
chris haldeman

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I would like to see the upper bolt be replaced with an eccentric bolt kinda like the Mazda 2 uses on the front.its a larger hole on 1 side and a slot on the other. This would accomplish camber if nessasary but would also allow quick rear camber adjustment without messing with rear tow
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#99
Alex Piku

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spoken like a true Millennial! :)

We are too busy eating avocados and reading poorly written millennial hit-piece articles to be on the SMAC


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#100
Caveman-kwebb99

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We are too busy eating avocados and reading poorly written millennial hit-piece articles to be on the SMAC

 

 


K. Webb
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My Signature is still not as long as Danny boy's
 

 

 

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