73 replies to this topic

[Steve Scheifler]

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It cost him a few thousand in Contingency, I'm sure it cost him alot of fans, it cost him alot of respect in the small community witnessed by this thread.
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Ah Kyle, once again I've been too subtle.   What I was trying to say is that some believe you can't really "lose" what you didn't come by honestly.  Certainly he gave away the opportunity to finish on the podium, win prizes and contingencies etc. but that was his choice.  To put it in clearer terms that I had avoided because it might seem overstated to some, you don't feel sorry for the pirate who got caught and lost all his ill gotten booty, and say he has suffered enough so no need for actual punishment. And this was not a one race deal, unless refuted directly I take the word of others that the slots were done at the time the car was built and run the entire season, at minimum. I also extended the logic to include his reputation and ego which were also not earned altogether honestly, due to both the cheating and the hypocritical private backstabbing that took place. The Armstrong comparison is a bit of a stretch (to say the least), he was a phony and a cad of unparalleled dimensions and deserves scorn not only for epic levels of cheating but how he treated others, but by comparison Danny is just a run of the mill pickpocket with an unhealthy ego and the wallet to feed it.

 

I didn't hear what penalty was handed down in terms of suspension or whatever.  Has it been published?  I never said we should crucify the guy and I'm with those who are saying that on a first offense once an appropriate penalty is served a person should be allowed back in with perhaps closer scrutiny, but I was surprised that he even has the option to run this weekend.

[Ron Alan]

I give most disqualifications the benefit of the doubt. They can be accidental non-compliance. They can be a misunderstanding of a rule. It is hard to consider slotted suspension parts to be either of those. That is why I view it somewhat different. But I agree if it happened at a regional if few would be talking about it.

Yes...I'm lumping intentional and unintentional together...and I see both in region! One you reply with "you need to read the rules!", the other..."you're a dumbass...let me buy you a beer!"

[MPR22]

First, I think you presume too much regarding motivation.
Second, if you pulled that move every race weekend from the start of the season, well, let’s just say you would not make it to the end of the season and the penalty could be a good bit more severe.

i didn’t presume anything whether you intended to bump to pass or you just can’t control your car and wreck someone the penalty is the same and the walk of shame should be the same. Intentional or not the bad act caused another to suffer.

Me thinks if someone was known to be cheating everyweeked the penalty you speak of might be just as severe.

[Steve Scheifler]

i didn’t presume anything whether you intended to bump to pass or you just can’t control your car and wreck someone the penalty is the same and the walk of shame should be the same. Intentional or not the bad act caused another to suffer.

Me thinks if someone was known to be cheating everyweeked the penalty you speak of might be just as severe.

Presume too much: I was talking about the reason for slotting the arms, to get camber equal to others, as opposed to gain an edge.
Every weekend: But that appears to be exactly the case here, it just wasn't called out until the last race of the season. The difference in your analogy is that of course the repeated nudge would be noticed early and dealt with, intentional or otherwise.

What are we even arguing about on this?? I doubt that we really differ much in the important points, we're just using and questioning a poor analogy.

[dstevens]

I'm gong back to the desert.

 

I've been hanging with the desert guys for a while, even working with them every now and again.

 

I don't know how long you've been away from desert racing but it's no longer like it was in earlier years particularly in SCORE or even BITD. 

 

The winner of the Baja 1000 was caught on video defeating the rear facing red and amber safety lights via a hidden switch against the rules.  One of the leading radio suppliers hijacked the competition's domain name and pointed it at their own site.   There were some guys that were using a builder that would take a crate engine for a sealed motor class, replace the rotating assemblies and balance them, put them back in the GM crate and send them to the sealer.  Who would then seal them as they appeared to be original in the sealed crate from GM.

 

Point is, the grass is always greener on the other side.  And for $33k you'll have to pipe a bunch more into the program.  

[Johnny D]

For me, I don't like any of this.

Av8tor I'd suggest suck it up for a while and see if things get better.

MartinRacing I'd say the same.

Kyle, Oh well, good luck not getting caught next time Danny, hehe.....WTF ??

 

Look at the damage. For every post how many are out there lurking/thinking about the class, reading this ?

 

Do you think this is good for the class?, part of the game?, if you're not cheating, you're not trying?, tech shed knowledge ?

 

If so fine, Danny's not the 1st, not the last.

 

Kyle's comment on everyone cheats on marriages, taxes, etc. really rubs me the wrong way. At least you pay when you get caught. Divorce, Child support, Jail time.

 

Do you really want somebody like that in your Class ??

Do we have to treat people like children and give them a time out to stop ?

Let them sit them on the bleachers as they watch the others ?

 

What do you think about a 2~3 strikes rules?

DQ's over a period of time and you're out for a season/12 months.  They can go run, STL or whatever... but at at least he's not cheating in your class.

 

J~

[Jim Drago]

 

What do you think about a 2~3 strikes rules?

DQ's over a period of time and you're out for a season/12 months.  They can go run, STL or whatever... but at at least he's not cheating in your class.

 

J~

While I don't believe cheating is near as bad as others do.. What you posted above is all that will stop people.  If you know getting caught for whatever is deemed "cheating"  comes with a mandatory 6 month or 1 year penalty.  People would think twice. In this case where there was no mistake and clear intent a 6-12  month vacation would be a deterrent IMO. The issue is where to draw that line, There are non compliance issues that I believe are non intentional, but who knows and you cant police intent on most of these infractions. With that being said, I would still favor a 12 suspension for any of the more serious infractions 

[OrangeCrush86]

If you want every person in an identical car with no cheating you should probably pick up sim racing.

[FTodaro]

While I don't believe cheating is near as bad as others do.. What you posted above is all that will stop people.  If you know getting caught for whatever is deemed "cheating"  comes with a mandatory 6 month or 1 year penalty.  People would think twice. In this case where there was no mistake and clear intent a 6-12  month vacation would be a deterrent IMO. The issue is where to draw that line, There are non compliance issues that I believe are non intentional, but who knows and you cant police intent on most of these infractions. With that being said, I would still favor a 12 suspension for any of the more serious infractions 

Agree, if you not going to impose a penalty for a clear rule violation then it will continue. I am not sure why someone would not get a penalty when it happens at the big show. Maybe the SMAC  should address this issue, if cleaning up the class is a priority.

[Bench Racer]

Agree, if you not going to impose a penalty for a clear rule violation then it will continue. I am not sure why someone would not get a penalty when it happens at the big show. Maybe the SMAC  should address this issue, if cleaning up the class is a priority.

No question I'm my mind there was a penalty for the cheat in the as Frank calls it, The Big Show. DQ for starters/ loss of contingency/personal humiliation  and maybe some points on license.

[Steve Scheifler]

No question I'm my mind there was a penalty for the cheat in the as Frank calls it, The Big Show. DQ for starters/ loss of contingency/personal humiliation and maybe some points on license.

I’ll resist repeating myself on what he “lost”, but points on his license? Seriously Bench, do YOU think that is adequate under the circumstances? I think it is a slap in the face to everyone else.

[Lee Thomas]

Guess it's just me, I have some pride in the fact I don't cheat. Need to find a new hobby apparently. Car for sale ESR 2000, raced 4 times by Drago and 3xs by me. $33,000 and it's yours.
I'm gong back to the desert.

Wow... So high and mighty of you, sir.  Danny paid the price for what he did.  You want to make it a terminal death sentence for him, that's your problem, not his and certainly not "ours".  Danny is a net positive for the Spec Miata community.  He's a fierce competitor and even in this situation he fell on his sword and made zero excuses.  That's what a stand-up person does when they fudge-up.  I actually respect him more now.  Call me crazy!  I forgive him and if anyone can't that's a refection on them.  So, see ya later av8tor.  I hope the folks in your life are more forgiving of you when you make an ethically questionable decision.

[Johnny D]

ok, the past is the past. Moving on.

 

Bench thinks a DQ is a penalty, does everyone agree??

 

I feel a DQ is you or you're car are not to spec/to the rules, so you shouldn't be on track/achieved a advantage, in the 1st place.

 

I feel a penalty should be a disadvantage or handicap and discouragement to not repeat the action.

 

And blatant DQ's should have a penalty.

 

J~

[Martinracing98]

ok, the past is the past. Moving on.

Bench thinks a DQ is a penalty, does everyone agree??

I feel a DQ is you or you're car are not to spec/to the rules, so you shouldn't be on track/achieved a advantage, in the 1st place.

I feel a penalty should be a disadvantage or handicap and discouragement to not repeat the action.

And blatant DQ's should have a penalty.

J~

Loss of gains one acheived had they not been DQ'd is not a penalty. The GCR indicates that basically 3 DQ in three years results in suspension. The suspension is the penalty. Maybe 3 times is a good number. Maybe instead it should be 2.

[Johnny D]

Loss of gains one acheived had they not been DQ'd is not a penalty. The GCR indicates that basically 3 DQ in three years results in suspension. The suspension is the penalty. Maybe 3 times is a good number. Maybe instead it should be 2.

 

Fair enough, I mentioned 3 strikes earlier, looks like it's in play. Anybody keeping count or you have to throw paper ?

 

So I only ask should a blatant DQ be a more serious penalty ?

 

J~

[dstevens]

When Valafar was caught the first time there were several calling for his head, permanent ban, etc.  That was likely due to him not having any/many friends in the paddock.  When Steyn is caught because people know and like him they're more willing to give him a pass.  Human nature I suppose to give your pal a break and crucify the other guy.  It does make you wonder what else he's cheated up and hadn't been caught for.  Maybe nothing but given how blatant this was and his prior ranting against those that were caught breaking the rules it makes me wonder what else was going on that didn't get caught.  Sometimes the loudest u-joint is the dirtiest.

[av8tor]

When Valafar was caught the first time there were several calling for his head, permanent ban, etc.  That was likely due to him not having any/many friends in the paddock.  When Steyn is caught because people know and like him they're more willing to give him a pass.  Human nature I suppose to give your pal a break and crucify the other guy.  It does make you wonder what else he's cheated up and hadn't been caught for.  Maybe nothing but given how blatant this was and his prior ranting against those that were caught breaking the rules it makes me wonder what else was going on that didn't get caught.  Sometimes the loudest u-joint is the dirtiest.

Bingo

[av8tor]

Wow... So high and mighty of you, sir.  Danny paid the price for what he did.  You want to make it a terminal death sentence for him, that's your problem, not his and certainly not "ours".  Danny is a net positive for the Spec Miata community.  He's a fierce competitor and even in this situation he fell on his sword and made zero excuses.  That's what a stand-up person does when they fudge-up.  I actually respect him more now.  Call me crazy!  I forgive him and if anyone can't that's a refection on them.  So, see ya later av8tor.  I hope the folks in your life are more forgiving of you when you make an ethically questionable decision.

I guess that is the difference between you and me Mr. Thomas.  I don't make ethically questionable decisions and I go the extra step to issue that when I am enjoying a hobby with my friends nothing I do could even be remotely perceived as unethical.  I didn't build my SM, but the first question I asked the builder was, "is there anything done to this car that will embarrass me".  He assured me there was not, and since then I have inspected the car short of tearing apart the motor.  Ethics are not questions.

[Parity]

IMO the question of intent should certainly play a role in determining a penalty. It's sometimes difficult to determine but often does become apparent. While the outcome is the same if you lock up a tire and knock someone off track vs intentionally punting them is a different scenario. Lots of folks get into SM by purchasing a used SM only to discover some "race prepped" parts over time. That's different than the seasoned class leader intentionally modifying parts. Losing respect of your fellow racers is hardly a penalty.

 

During NASA nationals in 2016 the winner of one of the GTS classes was caught blatantly cheating during the required dyno session after the race. He was stripped of the championship and the full years results, suspended for 13 months with probation for the following 13 months, plus fined 1200.00. Big show, high level competitor, big fine. He spent the 2017 season volunteering at impound and tech and is expected to return in 2018. Some people didn't even want him around at all but he certainly paid a steep penalty and volunteered a bunch of time. I respect him for that. He's earned it back.

[av8tor]

Danny cheating isn't why your going back to desert racing. You are delusional if you think it isn't happening there too. That, or there are no rules in desert racing. You are going back because you know Danny will be looked at constantly now and he is still faster than you and most others. If there are no car rules in desert racing then you can always claim they have better gear than you and that is why they are beating you. Much easier on the ego.

The above, or are you just saying that those of us staying are of weak character for even talking to someone that made a mistake? If so maybe you can start a new race series: marathon water walking? Even that though, I've heard tales of cheaters.

I am the first to admit that guys like Danny, Todd B. John D. Jim D, P money, and the rest of the guys who devote hours and hours to their craft will beat me with expected regularity.  They train, they study, and they develop their craft.  I show up 6 weekends a year to have fun.  I take it seriously and I compete on the track, but I don't have a goal of even a regional championship and nor do I choose to devote the time that would entail.  No Jamz, I am not disappointed because I know I will likely never beat Todd Buras in a fair race, I am disappointed because some drivers have no respect for their fellow competitors and are willing to cheat, plain and simple.  I have never been beaten in a SM race because someone had better equipment, I have been beaten by drivers who have more skill and worked harder to have it.