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January 2018 Prelims

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#21
FTodaro

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In our region and most others you are called to the Black flag station, so imo this new rule does zero!

Idiot behavior will continue untill people are suspended or banned...
 

Maybe after the conversation some one or both will learn something. I know that the implementation is the key and to all involved, they should have a location to review video, because often you learn something from watching others video. Yes sometimes its obvious and sometimes you don't know what you don't know.


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#22
Jim Creighton

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Peter, assuming you are at the National Convention, let's discuss this. At most regional races, there is no pit lane steward. As a matter of fact, it's almost impossible to get the operating steward to release cars from tech. This has to be design to work at regionals not Majors.

 

And as someone just pointed out, the GCR already states damaged cars are to be inspected by tech. The only time this really happens anymore is if they come in on the hook or flatbed. Pit lane is not the place to have a conversation. There's usually another race starting. Go somewhere that everyone can get out, get a drink of water and discuss what happened.

 

Let's not design this so it can't work.



#23
Peter Olivola

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Peter, assuming you are at the National Convention, let's discuss this. At most regional races, there is no pit lane steward. As a matter of fact, it's almost impossible to get the operating steward to release cars from tech. This has to be design to work at regionals not Majors.

 

And as someone just pointed out, the GCR already states damaged cars are to be inspected by tech. The only time this really happens anymore is if they come in on the hook or flatbed. Pit lane is not the place to have a conversation. There's usually another race starting. Go somewhere that everyone can get out, get a drink of water and discuss what happened.

 

Let's not design this so it can't work.

 

I won't be at the convention.  You might want to find a couple of Executive Stewards and discuss it with them.  As to the Regionals vs. Majors and pit lane vs tech, the former is problematic for both locations while I, obviously disagree with your position on the latter. 

 

While actions can be initiated by someone other than a steward, it would require a protest as the rules are currently written and that hasn't solved the problem so far.  An SOC/Black Flag Steward investigation stands a much greater chance of being followed through with a CSA/RFA.  There is nothing in the proposed rule that would give tech staff the authority to do what stewards can and are supposed to do in these situations.  

 

Getting drivers out of their cars before an initial interview is exactly what needs to be avoided.  Apparently those who wrote the proposed rule agree with that.

 

There is also nothing in the proposed rule that would prevent a region from designating tech as the investigation point.  Mandating it won't work everywhere or even most situations.  Where tech is thinner than stewards it's going to be an even bigger issue to do it at tech.  The small event steward staffing model will be especially challenging, but then, following the Brian Holtz Rule, or rather its inverse, smaller events are far less likely to have the problem to deal with in the first place.



#24
JRHille

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All I know is, I am never protesting another driver on a Sunday again.  That shit takes forever.  Just want to go home.  


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#25
Danica Davison

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Your an idiot. We’ve had a perfectly finely tuned system of blame avoidance and then you come along and freely admit fault. Now no one knows what to do.
 

 

bahahahaha. Kyle can't do anything right besides mow a lawn! He even let the F1 Driver, Spencer Rutherford, win his first race!  We still haven't heard the end of it.


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#26
Caveman-kwebb99

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bahahahaha. Kyle can't do anything right besides mow a lawn! He even let the F1 Driver, Spencer Rutherford, win his first race! We still haven't heard the end of it.


Probably should have spun him! But he really needed a win after talking about his unpublished lap record of ncm.

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#27
Jim Creighton

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Peter, you totally missed the point. I never said tech would be involved. I only suggested tech as place to carry out the process. I don't know one single tech person who would want to get involved.. In SEDiv, the operating steward usually comes to tech post race to see if any problems are found and to release the cars. Heck, the women's bathroom is ok with me. I just don't see this kind of thing happening on pit lane while the next race is running. In reality, Divisions are going to set this up as best fits their ability to handle. And I do intend to speak with our Exec to see how we will handle in SEDiv. We've beat this part to death. I believe it will help remove some aggressive driving. Thanks SM guys for getting it done.



#28
Peter Olivola

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So, essentially, you're requiring more stewards after arguing there is a problem with not enough.  



#29
Bench Racer

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Many people have read about the contact over the few years on this site. 

There are rules in place today and these rules have been in place for years.

Funny how it's always the drivers duty to protest when these rules are in place.

Let's start with a simple existing rule:

 

J. If a car is involved in an accident or is damaged as a result of mechanical failure, the damage must be noted in the Vehicle Logbook by the accident investigator or Chief Technical Inspector.

 

Why is this existing rule not followed/enforced?

Who is not doing their job today, if you want the job hat, wear the job hat. 

Peter, being you like to commentary on rules, why are you sidestepping an age old rule ^. Why is this rule not enforced? It would seem this age old rule would require corner stations to do call in and whoever follows through. 


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#30
Peter Olivola

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Peter, being you like to commentary on rules, why are you sidestepping an age old rule ^. Why is this rule not enforced? It would seem this age old rule would require corner stations to do call in and whoever follows through. 

 

Must be a local problem.



#31
Bench Racer

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Must be a local problem.

Gee, you were local within CenDiv for many years. And that's ^ the issue with wearing a hat, minimal or one sided communication.


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#32
Peter Olivola

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Gee, you were local within CenDiv for many years. And that's ^ the issue with wearing a hat, minimal or one sided communication.

 

Ok, David, you're right.  Every nick and ding should be written up and repaired between events.  Last time I had this conversation with SM competitors they weren't too happy with that approach.  But you are still the only one qualified to write and interpret rules.

 

I haven't worked a Central Division event in eight years.  If you have a problem with Central Division's rules application I suggest you take it up with the Executive Steward of the division.



#33
Bench Racer

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Sarcasm and excuse, over weighs conversation every time. 


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#34
Peter Olivola

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Sarcasm and excuse, over weighs conversation every time. 

 

What conversation?  You don't converse.  You're inferring there is a universal lack of rules enforcement by the way you ask the question.  I responded.  You don't like the answer.  If there is a problem with not writing up damage in vehicle log books it's an issue for division Executive Stewards, not this thread.



#35
Caveman-kwebb99

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None of us will stick around if every little dent is written in a log book, sm will go out of biz in one season...

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#36
Bench Racer

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Kyle, Peter is excusing with his "every nick and ding should be written up" sarcasm . 


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#37
Peter Olivola

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Kyle, Peter is excusing with his "every nick and ding should be written up" sarcasm . 

 

What am I excusing?  I have no idea what's been going on in CenDiv for the past eight years.  I know what's been going in in RMDiv and a little bit about MiDiv and it doesn't match your complaint.  Every significant contact has been sent to impound with instructions to write it up in the vehicle log book.

 

Now stop with the whatisms and get your Executive Steward on the phone and see what he has to say.



#38
Walter Vetter

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Now stop with the whatisms and get your Executive Steward on the phone and see what he has to say.

 

Where's the fun in that?


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#39
TButler

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Getting drivers out of their cars before an initial interview is exactly what needs to be avoided.  Apparently those who wrote the proposed rule agree with that.

 

 

Peter, that’s exactly what should happen. Think of it as forced arbitration or mediation. Both drivers report to the designated area. An official finds Driver 1 and says we have a report from T6 that your car 73 and Car 37 made contact at the T6 apex. Can you explain what happened? Official then goes to Driver #2 and says we have a report from T6 that your car 37 and 73 tangled at the apex. Can you explain what happened?

 

If the drivers agree, shake hands, agree racing incident or somebody apologizes, no other drivers impacted, no extenuating circumstances like this was during a FCY or Local Yellow, etc the official can release them. The official gets their separate stories first then the drivers can chat with each other about the incident, shake and make up or agree to disagree. The official is there mediating.  Official still has the option of calling for the writing paper or one of the drivers may  protest. But the basic idea is that if you know you have to face the guy you just punted or may punt in a dive bomb pass, perhaps we’ll all be a little more civil out there. And if there is damage to repair, it can be noted in the log books, and the contact investigation can also be noted in the log book (damage or not) if warranted.

 

This is going to call for some judgement to implement. That’s why the definition of “significant body contact” was added. CRB was trying to set some basic boundary conditions.  If there’s side-by-side contact, both drivers continue, nothing but a tire donut or easily buffed out scrapes, I don’t expect that to be written in a log book and it should be a pretty short and reasonably amicable discussion afterwards.  But if your contact resulted in significant damage to the other guys car, you punted him off course, etc, I would expect that contact written into your log book. Enough of those contacts written up, with or without official points on your license and we can have a nice basis for a driver review.

 

Tracks you frequent may be different, but the ones I race out here, Pit lane and BF station is not the place to have those conversations. It may be the place to flag a driver and tell them to report to the DIIS location however. As noted above I feel one of the important aspects of this rule is drivers talking to other drivers face-to-face about an incident in a controlled (mediated) environment.



#40
TButler

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Many people have read about the contact over the few years on this site. 

There are rules in place today and these rules have been in place for years.

Funny how it's always the drivers duty to protest when these rules are in place.

Let's start with a simple existing rule:

 

J. If a car is involved in an accident or is damaged as a result of mechanical failure, the damage must be noted in the Vehicle Logbook by the accident investigator or Chief Technical Inspector.

 

Why is this existing rule not followed/enforced?

Who is not doing their job today, if you want the job hat, wear the job hat. 

It's called discretion. Does a tire donut qualify as an accident? Do we qualify "accident" by how many yards of duct tape is needed to effect a temporary repair? Do we qualify an accident by the time or dollars needed to make the repair? Does the car belong to a prep shop or arrive and drive supported by a prep shop that will have the car back out there by the next session that day? Did the car come in on a hook and it's done for the weekend or or is it a simple rod end repair and that car will be back out there in 30 minutes? It also quite frankly depends on the class.  Accident damage is a lot more noticeable in a thin class where you only have 3 cars/mile vs a class with close racing like SM and SRF with 15-20 cars/mile, There's a little more tolerance in the neat and clean appearance vs noting every scratch and ding as accident damage notations in some quarters.






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